RBIbaseball Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 NFHS 16U semi-final of a long tournament R1 going first to third, line drive to left field. F7 throws to 3B but ball bounces past and toward offensive dugout ( "real dugout" - steps coming up to opening). I thought I saw the ball bounce into the side wall post of the dugout and then inside. I kill the play and award bases. Offensive coach wants to give B/R 3B, but I get with my partner and we both agree B/R probably wasn't at 1B at time of throw, although neither of us got a look, so we keep him at 2B. Cool. Great. Now defensive coach comes out and tells me the ball bounced off an offensive player and into the dugout. I said I saw it hit the post, not the player. **There was a player standing OUTSIDE the dugout above the steps near the post** We go back and forth, but in the end I tell him I don't have it hitting the player and it is what it is. After the game my BU says he thinks it hit the player. I said ya, but even if it hits the guy that's on deck it has to be intentional. He disagreed. I gave an example of an overthrow hitting a base coach. He said ya but that kid was supposed to be in the dugout, and that he should have never been there. He claimed it wasn't the on-deck batter. TBH I have no idea whether it was or wasn't, as I didn't think it hit him in the moment, so I didn't take inventory of the players positions. I was much closer than him to see the ball carom into the dugout, so I still think I might be right, but regardless I would like to know: A. Ball bounced off on-deck batter standing next to the dugout opening (no intent) B. Ball bounced off on-deck batter standing next to dugout and he fails to suppress his impulse and knees the ball into the dugout like a hacky sack C. Ball bounced off player who was standing on the top step and exited the dugout in efforts to not get hit by the overthrow, and it grazes off his hip into the dugout (no intent) D. Ball bounced off player who exited the dugout to celebrate a base hit by the B/R, and the overthrow deflected off his hip into the dugout (no intent) By the way, at the time the ball entered the dugout, R1 was safely standing on 3B and B/R was approximately rounding 1B. In A I have nothing. In B I have to get an out, but do I get the out on B/R who was still advancing, or R1 who was stationary on 3B with no effort to advance? In C/D do we have to get an out because the player was negligent to be out of the dugout, or does there still have to be intent? edit: if C/D are outs, what it we determine that the ball was 100% going to roll into the dugout regardless of whether it made contact with them - does that make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noumpere Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 Treat the player as "loose equipment" and judge whether the ball would have gone in the dugout anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maven Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 Yep. There's no out to be had here—which explains why you couldn't figure out whom to call out. In general, no matter what the ODB does to a thrown ball that's bouncing into the dugout, I'm going to be awarding bases. That's the penalty, and it is neither enhanced nor nullified by the ODB doing stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBIbaseball Posted June 26 Author Report Share Posted June 26 44 minutes ago, maven said: Yep. There's no out to be had here—which explains why you couldn't figure out whom to call out. In general, no matter what the ODB does to a thrown ball that's bouncing into the dugout, I'm going to be awarding bases. That's the penalty, and it is neither enhanced nor nullified by the ODB doing stupid. Okay, but what if we change an important detail. Ball is bouncing near the dugout, but probably would have skipped past toward the backstop if not for the player being dumb? Am I allowed to just kill it and keep people where they are at had the "loose equipment" not existed, or do I have to either ward bases or get an out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maven Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 If the player out of the dugout is allowed to be there, then his team is on offense. When the ball is kicked out of play, kill it and put the runner(s) back. Those runners were going to be able to advance. Now, due to the actions of his team mate, they're going back. That's sufficient penalty (although others are available in the MSU rule book). No, we don't award bases when a thrown ball that was not going out of play is sent out of play by the offense. Remember, that penalty is for the defense putting the ball out of play, not merely for the ball going out of play. If the offense puts the ball out of play, we don't penalize the defense for that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMax Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 7 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: Ball is bouncing near the dugout, but probably would have skipped past toward the backstop if not for the player being dumb? I once had one much like this, but even better… Ballfield – one of the ST “backfields” here in Phoenix, which have a chain-link door on the home plate side of the dugout. This door is typically closed, and whether or not a latch is present is variable, but in this case, on this field, at this moment, there must not have been one… but it factors into what transpired… The On Deck Circle is about six to eight feet in front of this door. Two panels down the fence line is the dugout opening. The batting team was in this 3B dugout… 15U tournament, R1-R2, 2-outs, and a hit to shallow right. F9 comes up throwing, but R2 is going for plate. Throw comes to plate, but gets away from F2, and goes rolling towards 3B On Deck Circle. R1 has arrived at 3B, BR is headed to 2B. The idiot ODH opens the door and virtually ushers the rolling ball out of the ballpark! There it goes! Out the door! “Time!”, we (umpires) bellow. “Hey! Don’t do that (to ODH)! … You (to R1 now at 3B)! Stay there! <pivot around> You, you’re there (BR at 2B).” … and not a word was spoken by either HC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBIbaseball Posted June 27 Author Report Share Posted June 27 1 hour ago, MadMax said: I once had one much like this, but even better… Ballfield – one of the ST “backfields” here in Phoenix, which have a chain-link door on the home plate side of the dugout. This door is typically closed, and whether or not a latch is present is variable, but in this case, on this field, at this moment, there must not have been one… but it factors into what transpired… The On Deck Circle is about six to eight feet in front of this door. Two panels down the fence line is the dugout opening. The batting team was in this 3B dugout… 15U tournament, R1-R2, 2-outs, and a hit to shallow right. F9 comes up throwing, but R2 is going for plate. Throw comes to plate, but gets away from F2, and goes rolling towards 3B On Deck Circle. R1 has arrived at 3B, BR is headed to 2B. The idiot ODH opens the door and virtually ushers the rolling ball out of the ballpark! There it goes! Out the door! “Time!”, we (umpires) bellow. “Hey! Don’t do that (to ODH)! … You (to R1 now at 3B)! Stay there! <pivot around> You, you’re there (BR at 2B).” … and not a word was spoken by either HC. Oh that is a GOOD ONE!!! For sure... Hilarious lol I find it odd that in this circumstance (my example) it is being suggested to essentially "rewind time" and go to the point where everything was normal prior to something dumb. I mean its logical. It's fair. I don't disagree, but how do the rules support me if questioned? I'm assuming I tell offensive coach, "hey you're guy knocked it into the dugout and shouldn't have been there, you're not getting an award for that" Defensive coach, "hey no play was hindered, so I don't have interference, I'm putting the runners where they would have been had knucklehead not have been there" Okay that makes sense, and not to go down every variation, but what if a play was hindered ? What if in my example, R1 saw the overthrow and went home, catcher going for overthrow... Dugout knucklehead let's it bounce off his shin into dugout... It is possible catcher could have thrown out R1 at home Now we have to get interference, and call R1 out right ? .... I don't see how we can reverse time here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maven Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 13 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: I mean its logical. It's fair. I don't disagree, but how do the rules support me if questioned? "Coach, we award bases for the defense putting the ball out of play. That's not what happened, so no award. But the ball's dead, so the runners have to stop at their last legally touched bases." Can be delivered to both coaches (at the same time—they like to know that the other guy is getting the same ruling and info). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBIbaseball Posted June 28 Author Report Share Posted June 28 23 hours ago, maven said: "Coach, we award bases for the defense putting the ball out of play. That's not what happened, so no award. But the ball's dead, so the runners have to stop at their last legally touched bases." Can be delivered to both coaches (at the same time—they like to know that the other guy is getting the same ruling and info). That sounds totally reasonable, and 100% makes sense in my original example. So that one is case closed. But if runners are continuing to run I'm still having a hard time understanding how we could do anything but AWARD BASES or GET INTERFERENCE. If the runners continue to run on the overthrow that ricochets into the dugout (instead of R1 just standing on 3rd like in my example), are you still putting everything back where it was? Wouldn't the defensive coach have a valid gripe to say, "that could have bounced off that post and my catcher had a chance to slide over there and throw R1 out at the plate" ... Or what if R1 is 30 feet from home when it bounces off bozo into the dugout... put him back at 3B or tell the coach he was gonna score anyway so it counts? It seems to me that the "no harm no foul - rewind" only work if the runners stayed put like in my example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
834k3r Posted June 28 Report Share Posted June 28 7 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said: It seems to me that the "no harm no foul - rewind" only work if the runners stayed put like in my example. Not necessarily, but there's a lot more work involved (getting together with your partner(s), socializing the result with the coaches (yep, both will definitely want an explanation), setting the runners) for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maven Posted June 29 Report Share Posted June 29 12 hours ago, RBIbaseball said: But if runners are continuing to run I'm still having a hard time understanding how we could do anything but AWARD BASES or GET INTERFERENCE. No INT (of the kind you mean, resulting in an out) is possible. So drop that. I've already addressed the scenario in which we would not award bases. The ball is dead when it enters dead ball territory, so kill it then. Runners might keep running, but it doesn't count. Sometimes, you just gotta umpire. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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