Is Voluntary release required on this play?

[mrumpiresir]

Is Voluntary release an issue in this play.

[Velho]

No, voluntary release is not required o this play. As @maven stated in the below thread "Tagging a base requires the fielder to maintain secure possession of the ball in hand or glove at the moment of tagging the base. The ball popping out due to accidental contact with the runner after the tag of the base is nothing, and the umpire should rule the runner out in that case. 'Secure possession' is a judgment call."

 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, mrumpiresir said:

Is Voluntary release an issue in this play.

Before I berate you for not reading and posting in the original thread and starting a new one I have to admit "mea culpa" as to my participation in the hijack and thus starting this one is appropriate. Voluntary release is not an issue with this play in LL, FED, OBR. NCAA however recently added this problematic wording to their Tag definition: ". A voluntary and intentional release is substantive proof of complete control." We would of course argue that there can be other substantive proof such as a judgement of complete control.

[mrumpiresir]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Before I berate you for not reading and posting in the original thread and starting a new one I have to admit "mea culpa" as to my participation in the hijack and thus starting this one is appropriate. Voluntary release is not an issue with this play in LL, FED, OBR. NCAA however recently added this problematic wording to their Tag definition: ". A voluntary and intentional release is substantive proof of complete control." We would of course argue that there can be other substantive proof such as a judgement of complete control.

I just needed experienced umpires to settle a "discussion".  My apologies, I didn't see the other thread

Edited August 13, 2023 by mrumpiresir
addition of info

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, mrumpiresir said:

I just needed experienced umpires to settle a "discussion".  My apologies, I didn't see the other thread

No apology necessary: My wife used to say my attempts at humor went over peoples heads and it was my

fault. 

[maven]

11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

NCAA however recently added this problematic wording to their Tag definition: ". A voluntary and intentional release is substantive proof of complete control." We would of course argue that there can be other substantive proof such as a judgement of complete control.

We would and have argued as much.

What's confusing here is the word "proof." Definitions provide criteria, and criteria are individually necessary and jointly sufficient conditions. The definition of CATCH, for example, includes 2 conditions: secure possession in hand or glove, and voluntary release. Each is individually necessary, and together they are sufficient for a catch.

The definition of TAG includes secure possession and touch of a base or runner. Again, individually necessary and jointly sufficient. If a play satisfies these conditions (slightly varied for tagging a runner or a base), then we have a tag.

The concept of proof does not enter into definitions. Either a play satisfies the conditions of a definition or it does not, and that's a matter of judgment, not proof. Judgment is based on sensory evidence, so perhaps NCAA just sloppily conflates proof with evidence in their revised definition. Which, as I say, is confusing and unfortunate (and, if you like, problematic).