MLB Ejection 153 - Adam Hamari (4; Mark Kotsay)

[Lindsay]

HP Umpire Adam Hamari ejected A's manager Mark Kotsay (out of the base path call on Tony Kemp; QOCY) in the bottom of the 1st inning of the #RedSox-#Athletics game. With one out and one on (R3 Kemp), Red Sox pitcher Joe Jacques' 1-0 sinker to A's batter Jordan Diaz bounced off of Red Sox catcher Jorge Alfaro's mitt into foul territory along the left field side. A's R3 Kemp ran toward home plate as Alfaro recovered the ball and dove in an attempt to tag Kemp, who jumped to avoid the tag, ruled out of the base path by HP Umpire Hamari. Replays indicate R3 Kemp ran more than three feet from his established base path (direct line from runner to base established when tag attempt begins), the call was correct.* At the time of the ejection, the game was tied, 0-0. The A's ultimately won the contest, 3-0.

This is Adam Hamari (78)'s

History: MLB Ejection 018 - Adam Hamari (2; Mark Kotsay) (4/19/23).

Official Baseball Rule 5.09(b)(1): "Any runner is out when they run more than three feet away from their base path to avoid being tagged unless their action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base they are attempting to reach safely."

This is the 153rd ejection report of the 2023 MLB regular season.

This is the 71st manager ejection of 2023. Ejection Tally: 71 Managers, 63 Players, 19 Coaches.

This is Oakland's 7th ejection of 2023, 1st in the AL West (OAK 7; LAA, SEA, TEX 6; HOU 3).

This is Mark Kotsay's 4th ejection of 2023, 1st since June 5 (Jansen Visconti; QOC = Y [Balls/Strikes]).

This is Adam Hamari's 4th ejection of 2023, 1st since May 20 (Jesse Winker; QOC = Y [Pitch Clock]).

Wrap: Boston Red Sox vs Oakland Athletics, 7/18/23 | Video as follows:

Alternate Link: Hamari ejects Kotsay arguing an out of the base path (NOT baseline!) call on Kemp

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[SeeingEyeDog]

I'm not sure I am using good form here (posting a CCS video outside of their space on the main forum...) Lindsay has forgotten more about the rules of baseball than I will ever know. I am so grateful everyday for her videos because she always provides citations and even discusses the application of FED on some plays. I put this video here because I know not everyone on the site visits CCS so, rather than commenting and asking my question there, I am doing so here...

Please watch this video and explain to me in small words why this is an out. For further reference, in the still image above in the thumbnail, you can even see Kemp's hand, arm, shoulder and head are all within the 3 foot range of F2's reach. Please explain what I am missing on this play...

~Dawg

[SH0102]

The tag attempt isn’t when he actually sticks his arm out. It’s when the tag play begins.  When he (f2) has the ball and it’s a tag play, the path is set.

Easy way to think about this…would the runner have been tagged out if they hadn’t veered way into the grass ?  Yes.

As Lindsay had said, if r3 went immediately into grass then their path can be through the grass (though obviously this would have made their total distance run longer)

Once r3 “chose” to run essentially right down the line and f2 begins to come at them, they can’t then run way into the grass to avoid them.

If you allowed this, then the runner could run all over (like a wayward squirrel on the field) bc the fielder can’t yet physically reach them with their arm yet

[The Man in Blue]

Let me start with "This rule is a whole lot of vagueness."  It is a simple enough concept, but it lacks needed specifics.

What needs to be within 3 feet?  Anything?  Something?  Everything?

When does a tag attempt actually begin?  When the fielder conceives of it in his mind?  When he is 30 feet away?  When an actual possible contact is evident and imminent?

Personally (and I know many will disagree with me), I don't like the idea of the tag beginning as soon as a fielder gives pursuit.  I understand what @SH0102 says above, but are you going to hold the runner to a lane if the fielder is chasing directly behind him?  Chasing is not tagging.  Moving into position is not tagging.  I prefer using the point that a possible contact is evident (not saying it has to be successful).  I disagree that using that allows the runner to run all over like a wayward squirrel because the fielder cannot reach him.  Quite the opposite, it allows us to justify when to invoke the rule.  What if the RF decides to run in with his arms outstretched instead of throwing the ball in?

If we want to use a "last step" reference (like a runner's lane call) rather than any portion of the body, OK.  That leads us closer to the call that was made.  (Spoiler: not a fan of the call.)

  

[SH0102]

19 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

but are you going to hold the runner to a lane if the fielder is chasing directly behind him?

Yes… 

In a rundown, a fielder is often running at the runner, directly behind them… is the runner then allowed to veer way left or right to avoid them?

[The Man in Blue]

13 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Yes… 

In a rundown, a fielder is often running at the runner, directly behind them… is the runner then allowed to veer way left or right to avoid them?

That is the question (and part of my point).  If the fielder is near and stretching out the glove with a reasonable expectation to touching the runner, I agree we have potential OOB if the runner bolts from the lane.

If the fielder is ten feet behind him, no way. 

Say the runner sees a fielder awaiting a throw on the inside of the bag (the fielder is not obstructing in this example) and deviates from the inside to the outside.  Are you calling that a "tag attempt and a violation?"  As we all know, rundowns tend to "wobble" back and forth from the path simply because of the constant turning.  Are you calling that a "tag attempt and a violation?"

To me, the fielder is NOT making a tag attempt until he is in a position to actually make a tag (again, not saying it has to be successful).  Chasing or "getting there" first is NOT a tag attempt.   

I have previously discussed a rundown play I had where the fielder with the ball was running parallel with the runner for several steps but NEVER attempted a tag towards the runner.  At one point, the runner noticed this and veered away.  I assume he was caught up in the "rundown mentality" but I have no idea why.  After the runner made it back to first safely, the coach tried to bail his fielder out by asking for an OOB call.  I asked the coach where the tag occurred.  Even he couldn't provide a point where he thought a tag attempt happened. 

I disagree that the act of having the ball and moving in the general direction of the runner would be a tag attempt.  The base path is determined by the runner, not the fielder.

This is a good discussion since this rule is so vague!  

[Thunderheads]

16 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I'm not sure I am using good form here (posting a CCS video outside of their space on the main forum...) Lindsay has forgotten more about the rules of baseball than I will ever know. I am so grateful everyday for her videos because she always provides citations and even discusses the application of FED on some plays. I put this video here because I know not everyone on the site visits CCS so, rather than commenting and asking my question there, I am doing so here...

Please watch this video and explain to me in small words why this is an out. For further reference, in the still image above in the thumbnail, you can even see Kemp's hand, arm, shoulder and head are all within the 3 foot range of F2's reach. Please explain what I am missing on this play...

~Dawg

I'm going to move this / merge this to the CCS forum because it will keep all discussion of the same topic in the same area.  That said, @SeeingEyeDog ... people will see your response to something on any forum as it will typically come to the top as 'new'.

[SH0102]

First, if Lindsay says that’s when it is, I’m inclined to believe her bc their videos are spot on.

Second, if I’m coaching football and teaching tackling, is the tackle only the physical act of contact that forces the player to the ground? What about the pursuit angle? Footwork? Wrapping the arms? Head up “see your target”?

If I am coaching a crossover to a basketball player, is the jab step and motion not part of the crossover? Or is the physical act of moving the ball from one side to the other the only part that is considered the crossover?

If I have a ball and someone says “tag him”, the first part of my tag attempt is going to be running at you. As I said, let’s say r1 gets hung up, pickoff to f3.  R1 starts towards second. F3 runs right at him but is not within arms reach yet.  Can r1 turn to the right and run into right field?  Can he run to center field? Then the bullpen? All bc he has avoided being within arms reach?  I’d say firmly no.

Now, r1 starts to steal and f1 steps off and becomes an infielder and throws to second. As that ball is being thrown, can r1 veer into right field as he turns back. Yes.

I am okay with saying the tag attempt begins when a fielder has possession of the ball and is making an act designed to tag you (running right at you or the base you’re trying to achieve)

Another ex…batter hits dribbler up 1B line. F1 fields ball on the run and is coming at batter-runner. Just before he gets to arms reach the batter runs to right towards dugout. That’s ok?