Strike or HBP

[J-Brux]

In an attempt to avoid being hitting by the pitch the batter turns the wrong way and their bat crosses the plate and is still hit by the pitch, strike or HBP?

[ArchAngel72]

14 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

You said it was a "defensive reflex" in the post above.

What you are describing here is not a defensive reflex.

Words matter...and they mean what they mean.

 

And, yes, it is possible to have a defensive reflex that incorrectly, and unintentionally, puts you in harm's way....ie. if you had just stayed still nothing would have hit you...your defensive action caused you to get hit.  That could be you just reacting/moving without thinking, that could be you moving to the wrong place, or could be putting your hand out thinking (incorrectly) the ball was going to hit you.  That doesn't mean you haven't met the rule requirements of avoiding of HBP.  Don't punish the batter for simply reacting to a pitch that's closer to his person than any part of the plate.

I ask again...if I hop backwards, away from the plate, as a simple natural reaction to an inside pitch, and unintentionally move myself into the path of a (very very inside) fastball that otherwise would have passed behind me, are you making me stay put?

 

Dude you can have a defensive reflex to catch the ball.

 

This is what the kid did and he did so on a ball that never would have hit him otherwise.

That is not a HBP that is a kid moving into the path of the ball with his hand on purpose..

Think about it.

[BrainFreeze]

@ArchAngel72 is this in Little League? 

[The Man in Blue]

17 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I broke my collarbone getting hit by a pitch where I literally did not and could not move.  The ball left the pitcher's hand, and then I was on my ass.  I can assure you I did not allow the ball to hit me.

You're expecting the ball over the plate...you're starting your swing in that fashion...if the ball is suddenly straight at you you may indeed just plain freeze...or not even have time to form what reaction you want.

No MLB player let their face get broken on purpose.

 

Did everybody else say "You did not move" or is that your recollection?  

I'm betting (although I may be wrong) there was some reactionary movement.

I've never seen an MLB player stand still and take a ball to the face.  The only times I recall (and my memory isn't great) seeing an MLB player not move is when they knew it wasn't going to be anything significant (e.g., the position player pitching situation mentioned earlier).  Even the ones that get them in the armor you will see some minor movement.

[beerguy55]

28 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Did everybody else say "You did not move" or is that your recollection? 

Well, I did get my base (or the guy who subbed me got the base while I went to the hospital)

All I know is if there was any movement it certainly wasn't conscious.  What I recall was I was still in the process of turning my shoulders and upper body in the mechanics of starting a swing...it's what allowed the pitch to hit the collarbone on my back shoulder (and I'm thankful it didn't hit my jaw on the way).

And that partly relates to my point...we all have subconscious/unconscious/instinctive/reactionary responses to danger - fight, flight or freeze.  Slap/block the ball, dodge the ball, or freeze.  Bracing for impact would fit in the "fight" category.  (that's if we have any time at all to even do those)  We don't have any control over that - we can teach our body over time to change the fight/flight/freeze default, but in any given scenario at the time it is happening we do not have control over that default.  It might only last a few seconds, but make no mistake it's always there.

IMO, unless we're certain the batter's reaction to the pitch was conscious and intentional we shouldn't be punishing them for a purely instinctive reaction entirely out of their control.

If the pitch is 18 inches or more off the plate when it hits the batter, we should need a really, strong compelling reason to keep the batter in the box.  You're otherwise picking up the SH*#ty end of the stick.

[ArchAngel72]

2 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

@ArchAngel72 is this in Little League? 

Yes LL

 

The situation that happened is what happened to me 40 years or so ago except my situation the ball would have hit me in the shoulder and I let go of the bat and instinctively caught the ball.  Umpire told me I should not do that.  Well Based on flight of the ball and etc I would now knowing what I know awarded me in that situation 1st base.  WHY cause it would have hit me.  The situation I had behind the plate the kid reached behind himself at full arms length on a lobbed pitch that he barely got his fingers on and Did not catch it and it never ever would have hit him had he not reached out to touch it.

 

[ArchAngel72]

58 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

IMO, unless we're certain the batter's reaction to the pitch was conscious and intentional we shouldn't be punishing them for a purely instinctive reaction entirely out of their control.

If the pitch is 18 inches or more off the plate when it hits the batter, we should need a really, strong compelling reason to keep the batter in the box.  You're otherwise picking up the SH*#ty end of the stick.

 

Put it this way it may not have been completely conscious, more likely a reflexive compulsive thing.  But it was behind him so far he got his fingers on it and not his palm and he was not able to catch it. It was that far from him.  No I am not rewarding him nor penalizing the defense because a batter reached out to try to catch a ball that would have never hit him otherwise.

 

 

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Put it this way it may not have been completely conscious, more likely a reflexive compulsive thing.  But it was behind him so far he got his fingers on it and not his palm and he was not able to catch it. It was that far from him.  No I am not rewarding him nor penalizing the defense because a batter reached out to try to catch a ball that would have never hit him otherwise.

We may be splitting hairs...we may be arguing semantics...we may be having a heated agreement.

What you describe to me is probably not unconscious, instinctive or without (much) thought - if it is it's more muscle  memory than self defense.  If I saw what you describe I would (likely) see it as an intentional attempt to catch the ball, not a reaction of self defense.  It sounds, for a second, like he forgot himself or his situation.  Something you would do in a school yard game to stop the ball from going all the way to the fence...you're not even thinking about it before you realize you're actually in a league game with real rules and a real umpire. Akin to someone who, while at work, leans back and puts their feet on the desk because just for that moment they truly forgot where they were. (I'm reminded of a time at a ball game where I reached over to grab a French fry from the COMPLETE STRANGER sitting next to me).  

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Well, I did get my base (or the guy who subbed me got the base while I went to the hospital)

All I know is if there was any movement it certainly wasn't conscious.  What I recall was I was still in the process of turning my shoulders and upper body in the mechanics of starting a swing...it's what allowed the pitch to hit the collarbone on my back shoulder (and I'm thankful it didn't hit my jaw on the way).

And that partly relates to my point...we all have subconscious/unconscious/instinctive/reactionary responses to danger - fight, flight or freeze.  Slap/block the ball, dodge the ball, or freeze.  Bracing for impact would fit in the "fight" category.  (that's if we have any time at all to even do those)  We don't have any control over that - we can teach our body over time to change the fight/flight/freeze default, but in any given scenario at the time it is happening we do not have control over that default.  It might only last a few seconds, but make no mistake it's always there.

IMO, unless we're certain the batter's reaction to the pitch was conscious and intentional we shouldn't be punishing them for a purely instinctive reaction entirely out of their control.

If the pitch is 18 inches or more off the plate when it hits the batter, we should need a really, strong compelling reason to keep the batter in the box.  You're otherwise picking up the SH*#ty end of the stick.

 

As I said, it doesn't have to be a big move or a good move ... it just has to show the batter was not permitting the pitch to hit him.

I rest my case on the points you made above.  A 10u kid in a rec league?  No, I'm not hammering him hard because he has not had the experience with the game to have developed "baseball" instinct yet.  I'm cutting him some slack.  Kids playing travel ball or high school or above?  Not moving is not an instinct, it is a choice.  If you can react quick enough to hit the ball (a much more complex action), you have time to attempt to move. 

[ArchAngel72]

On 7/6/2023 at 5:02 PM, beerguy55 said:

We may be splitting hairs...we may be arguing semantics...we may be having a heated agreement.

What you describe to me is probably not unconscious, instinctive or without (much) thought - if it is it's more muscle  memory than self defense.  If I saw what you describe I would (likely) see it as an intentional attempt to catch the ball, not a reaction of self defense.  It sounds, for a second, like he forgot himself or his situation.  Something you would do in a school yard game to stop the ball from going all the way to the fence...you're not even thinking about it before you realize you're actually in a league game with real rules and a real umpire. Akin to someone who, while at work, leans back and puts their feet on the desk because just for that moment they truly forgot where they were. (I'm reminded of a time at a ball game where I reached over to grab a French fry from the COMPLETE STRANGER sitting next to me).  

Yeah I think you are visualizing something different than I

Like I said what he did was more akin to what I did as a kid just the pitch I grabbed and caught was at directly at my side and the pitch he did not catch was like 8 inches behind him and not inside the batters box.