Foul in the Box (with nuances)

[SeeingEyeDog]

I always pre-game with my partners, "HBP or foul in the box should be called by plate 95.673% of the time. If plate doesn't call it and someone else has it definitively, wait a beat to see if plate calls and then go ahead and make that call. Once everyone else on the crew, including plate, sees someone make this call, we will all mirror each other. And since we have pre-gamed this, if nobody calls HBP or foul in the box and a coach asks about whether this occurred, we can shut him down with, 'Coach, we pre-gamed this and the crew can make this call if they have it. Since nobody called this, I don't need to go to them because they don't have it.'"

Ok, so last night, I am on a 14U game, FED, travel ball game with a 2-man crew. We have an 0-1 count and nobody on so, I am in A and my partner has the plate. Next pitch is inside, I have it off the knob with a distinct PLINK and then it deflects slightly down and hits my partner in the thigh. He kills it and says, "Time!" not "Foul!" He walks around a bit, takes a drink, I come down from A a bit and ask if he is ok, we give each other a thumbs up and he steps back to the plate. Once he is behind the catcher, he gives the count as "1-1!" Before I can say a anything, the defense's coach asks for time, talks to my partner and asks him to come to me.

We get together and my partner says, "He is asking if we have a foul ball there. I don't have that. I was screened on that pitch because F2 stood up as the pitch came in. I have it from the pitcher's release direct to my body..." I said, "Ok, well...from the pitcher's hand direct to your body? Why did you kill the play then? It looked like you were indicating a foul ball..." He said, "There were no runners and I was hurt so, I wanted to take a moment and reset...do you have anything different here?" And I said, "Partner, I have the pitch off the knob of the bat and then hitting you foul. I heard it hit the bat and then saw it deflect slightly down and hit you. I have a foul ball." He said, "Ok, we have a foul ball then and the count is now 0-2." We broke the huddle and the game resumed without further incident.

My question is...Can a base umpire kill this as a foul ball if plate doesn't grab it foul? When I think of foul in the box and a base umpire making that call after waiting for plate, I typically think of a ball gong sharply down into the dirt and either hitting the batter on the way down or coming off the dirt and hitting the batter whilst he is still in the box. But, by definition..."foul in the box" can really take on a lot of meanings. Ultimately, we absolutely got this call correct. Mechanically, this felt clunky and I don't think we looked our best because by my admission, although I had it, I thought my partner did, too and maybe I should have shut the coach down since technically I didn't signal it immediately when I had it?. Also, we didn't have runners here. How might this situation change with runners? Call it foul after the huddle and simply return the runners as we do on any other foul ball, potentially take a run off the board? Thoughts, brothers? What do you guys have on these mechanics?

~Dawg 

 

[SH0102]

I have been taught, and it’s helped me immensely, to always say time on a difficult situation like that (as HPU).  It gives you an extra beat to process what you saw/heard.  Was that hand or knob? If it hit both, what did I hear first? What is everyone’s immediate reactions?

Saying “foul” or “dead ball” (no) or “take your base” commits you to a call too quick. Just say time, process, then make your call.

I’ve also been taught as BU to always say “time”, don’t yell “foul”.  Let plate decide if it hit them in box or out, on hand or bat, etc.  if you come up “time!”, everyone knows it hit something and you saw it.

he can’t have nothing on this, it’s either HBP or foul, and when you go to help, it doesn’t look as bad bc everyone knows you saw it

[SeeingEyeDog]

As I said, he said he had nothing on this. His call was an inside pitch that hit nothing but his thigh. His initial call was a ball. We talked in post-game about sometimes we call HBP or foul in the box or a U3K with our ears as much as our eyes. He insisted he did not hear see or hear it hit the bat. We've all been there. He just wore a pitch and he was screened. He was processing a lot and did not hear the ball hit the knob of the bat. It is what it is.

~Dawg

[BLarson]

My friend and I do a lot of games together and we pre-game this a lot.
It's hard to tell what happens on the front side (heck, even back side) of the batter.

If I'm plate, and I have it, I call it.
If he's bases, and he has it, he calls it.
If neither of us call it, then it's live ball.

We also had one of the know into fair territory where everyone kind of stood around until the defense figured it out from our silence.
I was in C and see/hear it happen...partner could not, but knew enough that he heard bat as well.
The Offense HC wanted HBP, but we explained it was off the knob (you could also tell by the body language of the batter he wasn't hit in the hands)

 

[BigBlue4u]

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Mechanically, this felt clunky and I don't think we looked our best because by my admission, although I had it, I thought my partner did, too and maybe I should have shut the coach down since technically I didn't signal it immediately when I had it?.

If this situation comes up again and your plate umpire does not signal immediately and you want the call, undersell it.  Make it appear that it's obviously foul or HBP.  Signal dead ball, but do it in such a manner that shows people that you think it's a routine call.  Good job pregaming this.  I've seen some real disasters with a double call on this type of play.

[TheRockawayKid]

Does anyone think it's terrible to get together after the play and talk about it then? Would it be terrible to just converse, and have BU say something like "yeah, I had it off his foot." I imagine that it wouldn't be a huge deal if it was a quick conversation. 

[MadMax]

What’s the context – amateur or professional?
A: Amateur. 

Is this amateur game televised, or subject to video review? 
A: If yes, then rely on that, and those protocols. If no, then… 

On 5/18/2023 at 9:19 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Thoughts, brothers?

Way too much time taken, way too many visits / interactions, and way too much talking. This is partly on your partner (PU), but the calling of “Time” means something. Do we (as PU) call Time each time we’re hit by a baseball? No, only at certain, particular instances. Sure, we might make a token “Time” mechanic to change a baseball out (with no Runners on), or a wild pitch so wild it went clear to the backstop… so if a PU, on a pitch, calls Time, something must have happened. 

Then, we have the physics – the pitch is up (knob-high, at least, the catcher (begins to) stand(s) up… but the ball impacts the PU’s thigh?? I don’t think your partner is 7’0” tall. Something must have happened to get the ball there. 

You heard a PLINK, or a DOINK? You’re 98 feet away… if you hear a plink, it was probably a plink. Say so. On that first excursion down to the plate (and should be only trip) to check on him, bring it up! “Hey Buddy, you good? Where’d that come off of?” This sort of discourse should arrive at a more “That one was off the knob”, or another more resolute conclusion… 

And, most importantly, avoid this – 

On 5/18/2023 at 9:19 AM, SeeingEyeDog said:

and maybe I should have shut the coach down since technically I didn't signal it immediately when I had it?

“Shut the coach down?” Such aggressive language! Look, everyone needs to identify and understand context – this is a 14U travel-ball game. This ain’t the Majors. There’s no need for secret huddles, and “asking for Time” and “going for help” and all the theatrics and rigamarole. 

Strained. Everything you just described sounds strained. Laborious. And largely unnecessary. 

[concertman1971]

With no runners on and an 0-1 count, what is the hurry to call "time" or "foul"? there is no action happening, so I would just let this play out. Maybe put my left hand up, signaling time/foul and taking a minute to process what happened. Then resume play. No rush to make a call in the OP sitch. Just my $0.02