Infield Fly

[DaveAM]

Good morning,

OBR rules:

Infield fly situation, 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits fly ball to second baseman. I have infield fly. Runner on 1st is off the bag and defense throws to first for the force out. My question is this a force play at first, or does runner need to be tagged? He never tagged up and was off the base the entire time. 

Now if runners decided to advance at their own risk, then defense needs to apply a tag, correct? There is no force play if they try to advance. 

[noumpere]

7 minutes ago, DaveAM said:

My question is this a force play at first, or does runner need to be tagged?

Neither (assuming F4 caught the fly -- you didn't say).  It's an appeal play at first for "not tagging up."  That appeal can be made by tagging the runner or by tagging the base.

 

You are correct that since the batter is out, the runners are not forced to advance.

[DaveAM]

Sorry my bad, F4 did catch the infield fly, then threw to first for a force out on runner. 

[maven]

19 minutes ago, DaveAM said:

Infield fly situation, 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits fly ball to second baseman. I have infield fly. Runner on 1st is off the bag and defense throws to first for the force out. My question is this a force play at first, or does runner need to be tagged?

Neither. I'll expand noumpere's answer a bit.

It's not a force out, but an appeal play. When a runner fails to tag up on a caught fly ball, the defense may appeal that failure. 

To make an appeal, the defense may tag either the runner before he returns to his base or the base he failed to retouch. So they may appeal the failure to tag up in the usual way.

The only difference the IFF makes is that the batter is out before the fielder catches his fly ball. He's not out again on the catch.  

[SH0102]

6 minutes ago, DaveAM said:

Sorry my bad, F4 did catch the infield fly, then threw to first for a force out on runner. 

It is not a force-out...try to remove that language from your vocabulary in terms of "if he doesn't have to be tagged, it is a force out", that is not true.  This is very important distinction when the 3rd out is made and determining if a run scored or not.

A force-out occurs when a runner is FORCED to advance by the batter becoming a runner.  

In your situation, since the batter is out, the runner is not forced to try and advance.  Thus, his returning to 1st base is a time play.  Did he or the ball get back to 1st base first?

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, DaveAM said:

Sorry my bad, F4 did catch the infield fly, then threw to first for a force out on runner. 

Still not a "force out."  A force play is when the runner MUST leave the base because the batter becomes a runner.  A runner can only be forced to advance; a runner is never forced to return.  Once the batter is out, there are no forces.

 

Remember that "force out" and "tag the base to get an out" are not synonyms.  You can have either without the other -- a runner can be tagged and it's still a force out; the base can be tagged and it's not a force out.

[DaveAM]

Thank you for the replies and clarification... I incorrectly applied the force out since bases were loaded and the runner at 1st was not "forced" to advance. In this case the runner at 1st would have been out since he was off the base at the time of the catch and did not return before defense threw to first for the out. If not mistaken, then I have 2 outs on the play with the infield play, then the out at first. Sorry for any confusion on the " force-out" language. 

[flyingron]

BR is out as soon as it's declared an in field fly.     Since there was already one out, this is the second out of the inning.    Everything is still live.

The fielders then throw to first to appeal R1 leaving early.   This is the third out, but this is not a force, making it a time play.   If the runner goes home from third reaches the plate before the ball gets to first for that out, the run scores.    If it gets there after, it does not.

This is opposed to a force play, let's say the ball is hit to the third baseman.   He steps on the bag for the second out and the tosses it to second for the third.   The third out here is a force play, and even if the runner coming from third beat the throw to second, he doesn't score.

(I specifically avoided a 4-3 double play, we'll save that for another time, suffice it to say it's not a "force" either, but the runner still doesn't score).

[DaveAM]

Thank you for the feedback. I got my wires crossed on the second play for the runner at first base.  I thought the only option for the defense was to tag the runner who left first base early, but they can either tag or touch the base. In this case the defense did touch the bag therefore runner at first is out. Now I know when that same play comes up again. Thanks again for all the feedback.