Pitcher taking signs from catcher.

[theedeuce]

My son was pitching in his JV game last week. Runner on 1st and 3rd with 2 out when Plate ump all of a sudden cries "THATS A BALK". :WTFThe apparent violation occured when my son was straddling the rubber while checking the runners. My son looks around with his hands out :shrug:saying "I'm not even on the rubber yet". PU immediatly responds saying "thats why I called a balk. You took your sign from the catcher while not on the rubber". Of course the manager came out to challenge the call but to no avail was the PU budging. Obviously, the PU had this arguement before. My question is "how is taking a sign from the catcher (or anyone for that matter) before toeing the rubber considered a balk"? Would someone please advise...

Personally, I think thats a long reach to call a balk when there is no obvious attempt to decieve the runners (which is the sole purpose to call balks in the first place). The PU called a good game by the way...

[BrianC14]

My son was pitching in his JV game last week. Runner on 1st and 3rd with 2 out when Plate ump all of a sudden cries "THATS A BALK". :WTFThe apparent violation occured when my son was straddling the rubber while checking the runners. My son looks around with his hands out :shrug:saying "I'm not even on the rubber yet". PU immediatly responds saying "thats why I called a balk. You took your sign from the catcher while not on the rubber". Of course the manager came out to challenge the call but to no avail was the PU budging. Obviously, the PU had this arguement before. My question is "how is taking a sign from the catcher (or anyone for that matter) before toeing the rubber considered a balk"? Would someone please advise...

Personally, I think thats a long reach to call a balk when there is no obvious attempt to decieve the runners (which is the sole purpose to call balks in the first place). The PU called a good game by the way...

NFHS Rules, 6-1-1. "He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate."

Penalty: (Art. 1, 2, 3): If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

[Umpire in Chief]

That's booger picking 101 to me. The intent of that rule is to prevent quick pitches. If he isn't quick pitching, I'm not calling anything. There's no advantage gained and with the pitcher not on the rubber the runners should be on their base from a coaching standpoint.

Legal but bad call.

[BrianC14]

That's booger picking 101 to me. The intent of that rule is to prevent quick pitches. If he isn't quick pitching, I'm not calling anything. There's no advantage gained and with the pitcher not on the rubber the runners should be on their base from a coaching standpoint.

Legal but bad call.

Agreed.

[Umpire in Chief]

I think Dave was building a list of stupid rules, we can add this one to the list.

[LMSANS]

I think NCAA has the same rule, but it's treated as "don't do that". No penalty involved.

:home:

[trueblue]

How about delivering a pitch while not engaging the rubber? I had that in my most recent JV game. It was obvious the kid had no idea what he was doing on the mound, so it was a warning with an explanation to the coach and the player.

When he did engage the rubber, it became quite clear why he was not at first, he had never thrown from the mound in his life...I don't know what his coach does during practice with these kids, but it must not be baseball

[theedeuce]

I think NCAA has the same rule, but it's treated as "don't do that". No penalty involved.

LMSANS, thats what I was thinking. No penalty. Maybe stern warning at the worst. PU really called a good game but he gave us all one of those "where did that call come from" moments?

[Astrosdawg07]

NFHS Rules, 6-1-1. "He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate."

Penalty: (Art. 1, 2, 3): If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

See I didn't interpret it that way. I had this discussion with one of the guys in our chapter and he says since it doesn't not come out and say its a balk he won't call it.

[BrianC14]

See I didn't interpret it that way. I had this discussion with one of the guys in our chapter and he says since it doesn't not come out and say its a balk he won't call it.

Except that it does say it's a balk.

[Astrosdawg07]

Except that it does say it's a balk.

Where exactly does is specifically say the penalty is a balk? All it says is that the pitcher shall take his signs from the rubber. It doesn't say anything about a balk until it talks about the pitcher turning his shoulders after coming set then it says that is a balk.

Edited April 2, 2009 by AChesnut

[BrianC14]

Where exactly does is specifically say the penalty is a balk? All it says is that the pitcher shall take his signs from the rubber. It doesn't say anything about a balk until it talks about the pitcher turning his shoulders after coming set then it says that is a balk.

At the end of 6-2-3, on Page 42, where it says (PENALTY ART. 1, 2, 3). This Penalty section discusses the appropriate penalty for illegal acts and illegal pitches, which are covered in Articles 1, 2 and 3.

[BrianC14]

Some edification here:

The J/R manual states:

Pitchers

(a) must take signs form the catcher while in-contact [NFHS 6-1-1].

( may not habitually disengage the rubber after taking signs

© upon disengaging, must separate their hands.

No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through ©. Such actions are simply prohibited. A suggested course of action: first offense, call time and direct the pitcher to correct his actions (or discuss it with him or his manager during a dead ball); second offense, warning; ;third offense, ejection.

Source: J/R Manual P. 131

However, as I read 6-1-1 and the ensuing Penalty section, it states that the penalty for both illegal pitches and illegal acts shall be a balk.

[Astrosdawg07]

See i don't know whether this is a rule I want to enforce. However if the coach starts complaining I guess I have no other choice.

[BrianC14]

See i don't know whether this is a rule I want to enforce. However if the coach starts complaining I guess I have no other choice.

Well, that's what Warren was saying about Booger Picking 101.

However, I would tread carefully in saying it the way you've phrased it -- "I don't know whether this is a rule I want to enforce". That sort of leaves one to wonder, "What other rules do you not want to enforce?"

For me, I'd have be really convinced that F1 is taking signs... maybe he's just looking in to see if F2's acne has cleared up... you never know what those wild 'n crazy teenagers are up to these days. (get my drift?) ;)

Edited April 2, 2009 by BrianC14

[Astrosdawg07]

Any rule that doesn't affect the game, I'm more than ok with a warning. Seriously though how does him taking signs off the rubber deceive the runner? If there is a legit way then, I'm all for calling it a balk, but I just don't see it tricking the runner.

[BrianC14]

Any rule that doesn't affect the game, I'm more than ok with a warning. Seriously though how does him taking signs off the rubber deceive the runner? If there is a legit way then, I'm all for calling it a balk, but I just don't see it tricking the runner.

Yep, I agree. This and the infamous "gorilla arm" - - as though the pitcher's arm hanging down or swinging back and forth a bit is somehow going to give him an advantage. ;)

[Astrosdawg07]

I almost said that, but then again I called it the other night for some reason. I think since we had our meeting the night before and were discussing it, it was on my mind and I just called it lol. but actually I can make a better case for the gorilla arm balk better then signs of the rubber haha ;)

[BrianC14]

I almost said that, but then again I called it the other night for some reason. I think since we had our meeting the night before and were discussing it, it was on my mind and I just called it lol. but actually I can make a better case for the gorilla arm balk better then signs of the rubber haha

You called a balk on a gorilla arm? :agasp_:

[Astrosdawg07]

You called a balk on a gorilla arm?

Like a champ, perfect form and all lol...

[mstaylor]

Any rule that doesn't affect the game, I'm more than ok with a warning. Seriously though how does him taking signs off the rubber deceive the runner? If there is a legit way then, I'm all for calling it a balk, but I just don't see it tricking the runner.

Don't get hung up on deception and balks. That is only a small portion of what makes a balk. In this case it is to prevent a quick pitch, which is to protect the batter. If the pitcher isn't quick pitching, leave this alone.

;)

[NFUA_44]

As Warren pointed out so eloquently, this is BIG TIME booger picking, and that in itself can lead you down a difficult path as now your going to have at least one coach, and probably two trying to nit anything a pitcher does.

As an example, let's take the OP. R1 & R3, and F1 is straddling, well who's to say he isn't looking in to find out what the coverage signal is supposed to be for the 1st to 3rd steal? If you didn't give him the chance to toe the rubber AND get another sign for the pitch then you've just booger picked your way into a big problem. However if he toes the rubber and immediatley tries to do a quick pitch as mstaylor points out, NOW you have a balk.

Brian, thanks for the cite, looking forward to getting my J/R next week as it's the only reference I'm still missing out of my library (though I do need a more current MLBUM, mine is 2005).

Tom

[Umpire in Chief]

Remember, you cant call what you don't see and I've never seen a pitcher taking signals from off the pitchers plate or from someone other than the catcher;) and I don't think I ever will. :WTF

[widac]

What about this. F1 is astride the rubber, acting as if he is engaged. I don't care right now about the "taking signs" part, or the quick pitch issue. Do you think it's an issue if F1 is acting as if he's engaged to get the runner to take a lead and then F1 can just toss the ball over to the base without a step?

[BrianC14]

What about this. F1 is astride the rubber, acting as if he is engaged. I don't care right now about the "taking signs" part, or the quick pitch issue. Do you think it's an issue if F1 is acting as if he's engaged to get the runner to take a lead and then F1 can just toss the ball over to the base without a step?

Nothing illegal about it, UNTIL and UNLESS he does anything that resembles a pitching motion.