Pitcher “hiding” the ball

[BlueMagic]

NCAA rule set: 1B coach (also head coach) of Team A is complaining that Team B’s pitcher is hiding the ball and not allowing his baserunners to see the ball because he doesn’t have it at his side or behind his back. I didn’t notice initially, but after he brought it to my attention, I noticed the pitcher had the ball in front of him and wasn’t in compliance with the rule.

Should I have:

A) Told the coach to kick rocks and that I’m not calling that

B) Warn the pitcher, and call a balk if he doesn’t correct it (since it is a rule)

???

Any insight is much appreciated.

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

55 minutes ago, BlueMagic said:

NCAA rule set: 1B coach (also head coach) of Team A is complaining that Team B’s pitcher is hiding the ball and not allowing his baserunners to see the ball because he doesn’t have it at his side or behind his back. I didn’t notice initially, but after he brought it to my attention, I noticed the pitcher had the ball in front of him and wasn’t in compliance with the rule.

Should I have:

A) Told the coach to kick rocks and that I’m not calling that

B) Warn the pitcher, and call a balk if he doesn’t correct it (since it is a rule)

???

Any insight is much appreciated.

 

 

 

My 2011 BRD says it was an NCAA POE in 2008 that pitchers were deceiving the runner by holding the ball in the pitching hand in front of the body. NCAA allows the gorilla arm because it does not deceive the runner. If you or the runner can't tell when the pitcher is set you should correct it.

"A.R.—When taking his sign from the catcher, the pitcher may bend deeply at the waist and
have his pitching arm hanging straight down in front of him. The pitcher is not attempting to
conceal the ball from the base runner(s)."

[BlueMagic]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

My 2011 BRD says it was an NCAA POE in 2008 that pitchers were deceiving the runner by holding the ball in the pitching hand in front of the body. NCAA allows the gorilla arm because it does not deceive the runner. If you or the runner can't tell when the pitcher is set you should correct it.

"A.R.—When taking his sign from the catcher, the pitcher may bend deeply at the waist and
have his pitching arm hanging straight down in front of him. The pitcher is not attempting to
conceal the ball from the base runner(s)."

Thanks!

[Senor Azul]

2017-18 NCAA rule 9-1b. The Set.

1)    When taking the sign before assuming the set position, the pitcher must have the pitching hand at the side or behind the body.

PENALTY—Warning on first offense. A balk shall be called on subsequent offenses.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, BlueMagic said:

NCAA rule set: 1B coach (also head coach) of Team A is complaining that Team B’s pitcher is hiding the ball and not allowing his baserunners to see the ball because he doesn’t have it at his side or behind his back. I didn’t notice initially, but after he brought it to my attention, I noticed the pitcher had the ball in front of him and wasn’t in compliance with the rule.

Should I have:

A) Told the coach to kick rocks and that I’m not calling that

B) Warn the pitcher, and call a balk if he doesn’t correct it (since it is a rule)

???

Any insight is much appreciated.

 

 

 

Whore was the glove hand?  If it ALSO was in front of the body, then it's illegal.  If it was at the side, then the runner knows the hands weren't joined, and the play is legal.

[Senor Azul]

Once again, Mr. noumpere, you just make a grand pronouncement and provide no supporting evidence. As Mr. Jimurray stated earlier, the NCAA made this issue a point of emphasis in 2008—“the committee is concerned that pitchers are (illegally) deceiving runners by holding the ball in the pitching hand in front of the body and not at the hip or behind the body, as noted in this rule 9-1b.” That concern was still valid in 2016 according to the BRD. I wonder why the NCAA never saw fit to tell us there was an exception. Perhaps you can tell us please where your interpretation comes from. By the way, both the FED and OBR have the same rule so does this exception also apply in their games?

[Jimurray]

27 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Once again, Mr. noumpere, you just make a grand pronouncement and provide no supporting evidence. As Mr. Jimurray stated earlier, the NCAA made this issue a point of emphasis in 2008—“the committee is concerned that pitchers are (illegally) deceiving runners by holding the ball in the pitching hand in front of the body and not at the hip or behind the body, as noted in this rule 9-1b.” That concern was still valid in 2016 according to the BRD. I wonder why the NCAA never saw fit to tell us there was an exception. Perhaps you can tell us please where your interpretation comes from. By the way, both the FED and OBR have the same rule so does this exception also apply in their games?

OBR does not have the same rule. They want one hand at his side and don’t care which. That might be a practical way to judge this in NCAA. As I said, if you or the runner can’t tell if he is set,correct it. But, by rule, NCAA does require the pitching hand to be at the side, back, or hanging down where the runner can see it. 

[Senor Azul]

Yes, you’re right about the OBR rule, Mr. Jimurray. Rule 5.07a-2 does not specify which hand has to be on the pitcher’s side. In fact, it doesn’t even have a penalty—it’s a “don’t do that” rule. However, I can provide some support for what I posted with the following from the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 137):

“His hands must be obviously separate; his throwing hand (with or without the ball) at his side in view from all three bases…”

The point I was trying to make is there was no rule, interpretation, or case play provided for the assertion made. Doesn’t that bother you at all, Mr. Jimurray? Are we supposed to just accept whatever anyone posts as gospel? If a coach challenged us on a call wouldn’t it be better to have a rule to rely on rather than an online assertion?

What is it you’re trying to say? Are we supposed to disregard rules and Points of Emphasis without any justification? I would say that the rule and the POE are written pretty clearly—wouldn’t you?

 

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Yes, you’re right about the OBR rule, Mr. Jimurray. Rule 5.07a-2 does not specify which hand has to be on the pitcher’s side. In fact, it doesn’t even have a penalty—it’s a “don’t do that” rule. However, I can provide some support for what I posted with the following from the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 137):

“His hands must be obviously separate; his throwing hand (with or without the ball) at his side in view from all three bases…”

The point I was trying to make is there was no rule, interpretation, or case play provided for the assertion made. Doesn’t that bother you at all, Mr. Jimurray? Are we supposed to just accept whatever anyone posts as gospel? If a coach challenged us on a call wouldn’t it be better to have a rule to rely on rather than an online assertion?

What is it you’re trying to say? Are we supposed to disregard rules and Points of Emphasis without any justification? I would say that the rule and the POE are written pretty clearly—wouldn’t you?

 

I know how I would call it in any code. If I and/or the runner would not know if the pitcher was set was set I would correct it.

 

 

 

 

[Rich Ives]

On 3/30/2019 at 12:11 PM, Senor Azul said:

2017-18 NCAA rule 9-1b. The Set.

1)    When taking the sign before assuming the set position, the pitcher must have the pitching hand at the side or behind the body.

PENALTY—Warning on first offense. A balk shall be called on subsequent offenses.

But the ball can be in the glove.

The pitching arm shall be at the side or on the hip of the pitcher
with the ball in the glove or pitching hand.

[Jimurray]

On 3/30/2019 at 11:11 AM, Senor Azul said:

2017-18 NCAA rule 9-1b. The Set.

1)    When taking the sign before assuming the set position, the pitcher must have the pitching hand at the side or behind the body.

PENALTY—Warning on first offense. A balk shall be called on subsequent offenses.

Just to keep the thread accurate, the 2119-20 Rule changed from one warning to immediate balk/illegal pitch. 

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Just to keep the thread accurate, the 2119-20 Rule changed from one warning to immediate balk/illegal pitch. 

I guess I have about a hundred years to get used to it!

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I guess I have about a hundred years to get used to it!

I will not sneak in an edit and make your post confusing But in a hundred years, when you see this pitcher, what will you rule?

[Jimurray]

On 3/30/2019 at 9:35 PM, Senor Azul said:

Yes, you’re right about the OBR rule, Mr. Jimurray. Rule 5.07a-2 does not specify which hand has to be on the pitcher’s side. In fact, it doesn’t even have a penalty—it’s a “don’t do that” rule. However, I can provide some support for what I posted with the following from the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 137):

“His hands must be obviously separate; his throwing hand (with or without the ball) at his side in view from all three bases…”

The point I was trying to make is there was no rule, interpretation, or case play provided for the assertion made. Doesn’t that bother you at all, Mr. Jimurray? Are we supposed to just accept whatever anyone posts as gospel? If a coach challenged us on a call wouldn’t it be better to have a rule to rely on rather than an online assertion?

What is it you’re trying to say? Are we supposed to disregard rules and Points of Emphasis without any justification? I would say that the rule and the POE are written pretty clearly—wouldn’t you?

 

I find the JR requirement excessive. Pitcher in open set with R1, hand with or without ball at his side, that hand will not be visible to R1 but R1 will know when the pitcher is coming set. Does the open set with the hand at the side put the runner at a disadvantage? What exactly do coaches not like about "hiding the ball" when the set and non set is still clear? @Rich Ives,  @beerguy55 ?

[JonnyCat]

59 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I will not sneak in an edit and make your post confusing But in a hundred years, when you see this pitcher, what will you rule?

We won't have to rule on anything, by then, we'll have Robo-umps!

Kidding aside, looks okay to me from this vantage point. Can't tell if the ball is in front. Am I missing something?

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I find the JR requirement excessive. Pitcher in open set with R1, hand with or without ball at his side, that hand will not be visible to R1 but R1 will know when the pitcher is coming set. Does the open set with the hand at the side put the runner at a disadvantage? What exactly do coaches not like about "hiding the ball" when the set and non set is still clear? @Rich Ives,  @beerguy55 ?

If you have you hand in a legal position but the ball is in the glove it's legal but the ball isn't visible.  Legal. Ball hidden.  Too bad coach.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

We won't have to rule on anything, by then, we'll have Robo-umps!

Kidding aside, looks okay to me from this vantage point. Can't tell if the ball is in front. Am I missing something?

You’re missing a surprising ruling, if I read my email correctly, from the NCAA rules editor or whatever.