Raise your hand if you've seen this IRL

[ElkOil]

I searched and couldn't find it, so please forgive me if this is a duplicate.

The explanation given in the comments was that at the 0:12 mark, F1 tosses the ball into the dugout. This wasn't a balk call.

[Gfoley4]

All the runners got two bases because they had already advanced on the walk before the "throw" was made, correct? If they haven't advanced the one base awarded from the walk, they would only get one more base because awards don't "add" together?

[ElkOil]

2 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

All the runners got two bases because they had already advanced on the walk before the "throw" was made, correct? If they haven't advanced the one base awarded from the walk, they would only get one more base because awards don't "add" together?

Yes. Since the throw into DBT occurred as a subsequent play to the walk, runners are awarded two bases from TOT, and since they all acquired the next base, the award was made correctly. At least, that's my understanding of what happened here, and I agree with that call.

[Gfoley4]

4 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

Yes. Since the throw into DBT occurred as a subsequent play to the walk, runners are awarded two bases from TOT, and since they all acquired the next base, the award was made correctly. At least, that's my understanding of what happened here, and I agree with that call.

pausing it just after he makes the throwing motion, it looks like the B/R and R2 have both acquired their bases, but not R1. Would this have changed the situation any?

[ElkOil]

21 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

pausing it just after he makes the throwing motion, it looks like the B/R and R2 have both acquired their bases, but not R1. Would this have changed the situation any?

No, since R1 would be forced by BR behind him.

[KenBAZ]

The only question or issue here is if F1 requested time prior to flipping the ball in the dugout. It looks like he turned to U3 just before the throw and U1 came out to check with U3 before making the call. The award is simple, two bases, TOT. The runners could have been directed right away and by all members of the crew. Since the BR has already been awarded 1st does it matter if he and the other runners have reached the next base for the purpose of the awards?

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[Gfoley4]

1 minute ago, ElkOil said:

No, since R1 would be forced by BR behind him.

I might be off base here, but I thought we award runners based off the leading runners. So R2 was at third at TOT. He gets two bases (obviously doesn't matter whether it's two or one). R1 wasn't at second yet, so he gets second and third. B/R only gets second. I'm assuming this is OBR, so rule 5.06(b)(4)(G) comment. 

[ElkOil]

3 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

I might be off base here, but I thought we award runners based off the leading runners. So R2 was at third at TOT. He gets two bases (obviously doesn't matter whether it's two or one). R1 wasn't at second yet, so he gets second and third. B/R only gets second. I'm assuming this is OBR, so rule 5.06(b)(4)(G) comment. 

Hmm...

[beerguy55]

49 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

I might be off base here, but I thought we award runners based off the leading runners. So R2 was at third at TOT. He gets two bases (obviously doesn't matter whether it's two or one). R1 wasn't at second yet, so he gets second and third. B/R only gets second. I'm assuming this is OBR, so rule 5.06(b)(4)(G) comment. 

 

I'm looking at this one:

Rule 5.06(b)(3)(B) Comment (Rule 7.04(b) Comment): 

Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base.

 

This says, to me, that on a walk all runners acquire the next base automagically, regardless of what else happens. (if he goes past the base, he's at risk, if he misses the base he is at risk)   This would mean that it wouldn't matter if the runners had not reached their base yet in determining an award.  So, if we simplify it, nobody on base, pitcher throws ball four, catcher throws ball to pitcher, pitcher has a tantrum and throws the ball into the stands, while batter is only halfway to first base, BR gets third base, because he "had" first on the walk, even if he wasn't physically there yet.   This isn't a case of stacking/adding awards.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

This says, to me, that on a walk all runners acquire the next base automagically, regardless of what else happens.

It isn't?  If ball four deflects off the catcher and goes OOP, we don't award the batter second.  I'd treat the OP the same way -- two bases TOT, not two bases plus the award on the walk.

 

But, benefit of the doubt to the offense here, based on what I've read about it.  I didn't watch the video, so I don't have an opinion on whether R1 had reached second or not. -- and, yes, it matters for the runners behind him.

 

 

[ElkOil]

13 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It isn't?  If ball four deflects off the catcher and goes OOP, we don't award the batter second.  I'd treat the OP the same way -- two bases TOT, not two bases plus the award on the walk.

 

But, benefit of the doubt to the offense here, based on what I've read about it.  I didn't watch the video, so I don't have an opinion on whether R1 had reached second or not. -- and, yes, it matters for the runners behind him.

 

 

Well, in your example, since a pitched ball went out of play, we'd only award one base anyway. In the OP, since this was thrown by a fielder, it's a different award. But it would have to be awarded at the TOT, which means runners get two from wherever they were. If all runners had already reached their bases from the BB award, they'd then be given two for the throw into DBT since we're talking about two different awards here: one for the walk and one for the subsequent throw.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

It isn't?  If ball four deflects off the catcher and goes OOP, we don't award the batter second.  I'd treat the OP the same way -- two bases TOT, not two bases plus the award on the walk.

But, benefit of the doubt to the offense here, based on what I've read about it.  I didn't watch the video, so I don't have an opinion on whether R1 had reached second or not. -- and, yes, it matters for the runners behind him.

I see the OP as different because the pitcher throwing the ball out of play is a different act from the pitch that walked the batter.   This is why the runner is, as you agree, getting two bases from TOT - it's two different acts, two different awards...not two awards stacked on the same throw/pitch.  If R1 had reached second base before the throw you would give him home....he would get the one base as a result of the walk, and, provided he had physically reached second base in time, the next two for the throw OOP.

I'm simply suggesting that acquiring the next base on a walk is a formality, and for the purposes of timing, is considered to be completed immediately - and if a subsequent separate play results in an award, that award is measured from the base you have informally acquired (at a minimum).

[Jimurray]

Did the ball go into the dugout or was it picked up in LBT by a bench person? If it was wouldn't it be bases awarded at ump discretion? Since the defense picked it up I could see one base for anyone at there base when the ball was touched.

[JHSump]

For a very similar discussion, see

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php?/topic/24604-awarding-of-bases/&

In that thread the batter is walked, and before BR reaches 1B, the pitcher decides to try picking off R3 and throws the ball OOP. It is concluded in that thread that the BR is awarded 2B since he had not yet reached 1B at the TOT. The logic is well explained in that thread, with authoritative backup.

In the OP here, the video seems to show BR has reached 1B at the TOT, but R1 did not reach 2B at TOT. So, since no runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled, I think R1 gets 3B and BR gets 2B. (R2 scores, of course.)

Edited July 7, 2017 by JHSump
I meant to say "R2 scores, of course." Fixed.

[beerguy55]

So, in following this comment

"Rule 5.06(b)(3)(B) Comment (Rule 7.04(b) Comment): 

Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base."

 If, with R1 and two out, F7 throws glove and hits batted ball, and BR is tagged out after rounding third base, but before R1 reaches plate, R1's run would still count, would it not, under the same logic?

This comment implies that on a walk the next base is acquired immediately, and that, therefore, the timing of any other subsequent action assumes that fact.  You "have" the next base on a walk, even if you haven't physically arrived there.  If this were not true then the run would not score in this scenario/comment.   So, does it apply to all awards?  And does it imply that all awards are acquired immediately?

 

 

[ElkOil]

44 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

So, in following this comment

"Rule 5.06(b)(3)(B) Comment (Rule 7.04(b) Comment): 

Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base."

 If, with R1 and two out, F7 throws glove and hits batted ball, and BR is tagged out after rounding third base, but before R1 reaches plate, R1's run would still count, would it not, under the same logic?

This comment implies that on a walk the next base is acquired immediately, and that, therefore, the timing of any other subsequent action assumes that fact.  You "have" the next base on a walk, even if you haven't physically arrived there.  If this were not true then the run would not score in this scenario/comment.   So, does it apply to all awards?  And does it imply that all awards are acquired immediately?

 

 

Being awarded a base and acquiring it are two different things. You can be put out on appeal, for example, on an awarded base (or even an acquired base if you don't actually touch it). Or for over-running it.

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, ElkOil said:

Being awarded a base and acquiring it are two different things. You can be put out on appeal, for example, on an awarded base 9or evan an acq. Or for over-running it. You don't acquire any base -- awarded or otherwise -- until you've reached it and are standing on it.

 

And acquire may not be the right word.  You "have" it, and provided you touch it when you acquire it the run scores, even if the third out occurs before you touched the base.

[ElkOil]

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/07/case-play-2017-7-when-base-awards.html

Thanks, @Gil.