Non caught 3rd strike

[SirLanzeAlott]

Hello fellow Umps. Just a quick clarification for a rule I can't find in the books. Ok this is at the high school jr and sr. 0 outs runner on 1st. Drop 3rd strike BR takes off toward 1st. (I'm the FU) I call the BR out. The PU allows the BR to advance to first saying the R1 was stealing on the pitch. (Which is true) therefore 1st base wasn't occupied at the time of the dropped pitch. I consider 1st to still be occupied for this play. If there is any rule that can back up my claim I'd like to see it. I just can't find one.

 

 

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[Gfoley4]

Quote

5.09(a)(3) A batter is out when: A third strike is not caught by the catcher when first base is occupied before two are out

Quote

7.01(a)(1) A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

Here are the OBR references, but it's going to be very similar wording in FED

[Mister B]

IIRC, the runner occupies the base until he acquires a new base. This is why coaches teach F2 to throw to 2B on an U3K with fewer than 2 outs and R1.

According to your partner, that would be a force out on a steal. 

[BrianC14]

2 hours ago, SirLanzeAlott said:

 

Hello fellow Umps. Just a quick clarification for a rule I can't find in the books. Ok this is at the high school jr and sr. 0 outs runner on 1st. Drop 3rd strike BR takes off toward 1st. (I'm the FU) I call the BR out. The PU allows the BR to advance to first saying the R1 was stealing on the pitch. (Which is true) therefore 1st base wasn't occupied at the time of the dropped pitch. I consider 1st to still be occupied for this play. If there is any rule that can back up my claim I'd like to see it. I just can't find one.

 

 

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YGTBSM    Ask your partner:  "Well if 1B wasn't occupied, but there was still an R1, which base did he occupy at the time of the pitch?"   

Good grief.

[VolUmp]

If it's any consolation, I still get yelled at by ignorant parents of HS players all the time for this very play. 

"PAY ATTENTION, BLUE!!!  HE WAS STEALING!!! 1B WASN'T OCCUPIED!"

But the only thing worse is an ignorant coach — no — an ignorant partner.

[Richvee]

Something like this, I'm not ever letting it happen on a field I'm on. Maybe I'm a little tired of ignorant partners, (I've had my fair share this year). I'm telling my partner flat out, he's wrong, BR is out, end of discussion. I'd point to BR standing on 1B and say , You,OUT. I'm not getting into long discussions with my partner over applying simple rules.

I had a partner misplace runners on an overthrow this year...R1,hit and run, GB to F6, throws it into DBT over F3's head, my partner says "You (R1) home, you (BR) 3B" 

I walk in to talk to him and tell him it's 2nd and 3rd, 2 bases TOP 1st play from the infield. He tells me, "NO, everybody gets this wrong, it's two base from where they are when the ball goes out of play. "    I said again, No,it's 2 bases TOP on the first play from an infielder" He started saying something..I turned around and pointed the batter runner back to 2B, and the kid who just scored standing at home back to 3B and said, "now let's play."

[VolUmp]

I had a similar play this spring.

Partner thought runner awards were governed by TOBTOOP (Time Of Ball Trickling Out Of Play).  This man has been to the State Tourney ...

I told him that doesn't exist, he believed me without any fuss, and we fixed it.  It's only the unteachable and stubborn partners that make me want to quit. 

[Richvee]

11 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

I had a similar play this spring.

Partner thought runner awards were governed by TOBTOOP (Time Of Ball Trickling Out Of Play).  This man has been to the State Tourney ...

I told him that doesn't exist, he believed me without any fuss, and we fixed it.  It's only the unteachable and stubborn partners that make me want to quit. 

They don't make me want to quit. They're actually the reason I started umpiring. Seeing so may misapplied rules watching my son play through high school, I started thinking, I  can do better than half these guys.

The unteachable, stubborn, ignorant partners are annoying, and one of these days I'm probably going lace into one on a rant of why the heck are you even doing this, blah blah blah. But that day hasn't come yet

[SirLanzeAlott]

IIRC, the runner occupies the base until he acquires a new base. This is why coaches teach F2 to throw to 2B on an U3K with fewer than 2 outs and R1.
According to your partner, that would be a force out on a steal. 

Thank you. Helps me a lot. On providing my point



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[VolUmp]

7 hours ago, Mister B said:

According to your partner, that would be a force out on a steal. 

And I'm absolutely not trying to pick nits, but with two outs and an U3K, there certainly can be a force out on a steal.

For SirLanzeAlott's benefit and perhaps a few others, I know very very few umpires who even understand the beginnings and evolution of this rule.  I'll only delve into the more recent part (after catchers started wearing protective gear and crouched right behind the plate instead of 25 feet behind it).

EDIT (for ElkOil):

This would be our unfair situation if there were no exception for calling the batter out immediately with R1 and less than two outs:

R1.  1 out.  OBR.

If the batter would take strike three and F2 intentionally (or not) dropped the pitch, he could fire to 2B and then F4 or F6 fire to F3 and get a "cheap" double play.  So, instead of thinking of 2 outs being the exception, think of "Less than 2" being the exception … very similar to the philosophy behind the infield fly rule.

With 2 outs, or any other time that 1B is unoccupied, a cheap double play cannot be made ... so ... with 2 outs and R1, whether he's stealing or not, an U3K creates a force at 2B.  If bases are loaded, it creates a force at every base, and F2 may simply step on the plate (even accidentally) for the force out.

It is utterly amazing to me how many HS coaches and umpires are either clueless or "iffy" on this rule.  I really believe knowing the history and evolution of the quirky rules solidifies them in one's mind.

1) U3K

2) IFF

3) Intentionally kicking DP ball.

4) Runners may tag up on first "touch" of fly ball ... not the "catch."

5) Runners must return to vicinity of base after foul ball.

6) Intentionally dropped pop up or line drive after batted ball hits the glove.

And many, many more .......

[ElkOil]

7 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

R1.  1 out.  OBR.

If the batter would take strike three and F2 intentionally dropped the pitch, he could fire to 2B and then F4 or F6 fire to F3 and get a "cheap" double play.  

I had to read this over and over to be sure you said what I thought you said. Either I completely misunderstand you or you need to lean closer to your computer so I can slap you.

[Richvee]

30 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

I had to read this over and over to be sure you said what I thought you said. Either I completely misunderstand you or you need to lean closer to your computer so I can slap you.

I think you misread. He's explaining why you cannot run on a U3K with 1B occupied and < 2 outs.

[ElkOil]

41 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I think you misread. He's explaining why you cannot run on a U3K with 1B occupied and < 2 outs.

Boy, I hope you're right.

[VolUmp]

10 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

Boy, I hope you're right.

He's right. 

Maybe I didn't word the intro as thoroughly as I should have, but Richvee got the point. I was explaining what the world of baseball was like before we had the "exception" with R1 and less than two outs — where the batter is immediately called out on an U3K — and why.

I don't wanna hijack the thread any further, but role-playing the IFF situation (without the IFF rule) is the best way to teach why the rule was created.

"I got it!!!"  Let the ball drop untouched, fire to F5, fire to F4. Cheap double play.

[Mister B]

1 hour ago, VolUmp said:

And I'm absolutely not trying to pick nits, but with two outs and an U3K, there certainly can be a force out on a steal.

But that's not the scenario in the OP. Besides, if it's a U3K, it should no longer be a steal as the runner is forced. 

The catcher firing to 2B makes me happy, it usually ends up with R1 being tagged or caught in a run-down. (LL, so no leads) And what umpire doesn't like an extra out or 2 every now and then?