Slow-developing U3K

[kylehutson]

This didn't happen to me, but to an umpire friend of mine, and I thought it worth discussion.

The field this is being played on has the dugout openings about 100' from home plate (just beyond 1st and 3rd base). The particular instance here was high school JV, but I'm interested in knowing rulings from other rulesets, too.

R2 only, no outs. Third strike is dropped, and R2 bolts for 3rd. BR doesn't realize it was dropped and starts going to his dugout on the 3B side. Catcher overthrows 3B and sends the ball to LF. BR is almost to the dugout when he realizes his whole team and coach are telling him to run to 1st. He takes off right across the field, going right next to the pitcher's mound to get to 1st. R2 scores and ball doesn't get to infield until BR gets to 1st.

My thinking without consulting any rulebooks yet (a.k.a., the part you tell me that I'm wrong ):
1) He hasn't yet entered the dugout, so he's not out there. I seem to remember in OBR, that he's out when he leaves the dirt circle, though.
2) He doesn't need to run from the area of the plate and running across the diamond is OK in this case.

[Rich Ives]

In OBR and NCAA he's out for leaving the dirt circle.

In LL he can go directly to the base as long as he hasn't entered the dugout.

Don't know the FED ruling

[noumpere]

59 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Don't know the FED ruling

Same as you posted for LL

[BrianC14]

27 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Same as you posted for LL

FED Casebook says otherwise.   8-4-2 Sit. C and V.

But..... with FED, they are referencing "after reaching first base..."    Oy.   

 

[kylehutson]

2 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

FED Casebook says otherwise.   8-4-2 Sit. C and V.

I'm not seeing that from these cases.

8-4-2 Sit C:

(a) B1 reaches first base safely but thinks he is out and abandons his effort to return to first base and heads for the team bench, or (b) R1, running to third base, thinks he is out because of a possible force play at third base and leaves the field for the team bench when the coach tells him to return.

RULING: The umpire will rule an out in both (a) and (b), because in each play the runner abandoned his effort to reach the entitled base. Upon reaching base a runner abandons his effort when he leaves the baseline. (8-4-2p)

8-4-2 Sit V:

With the bases loaded, B4 hits a ball that is trapped by F8. R2 at second thinks the ball is caught and begins to return to second base. R3 attempts to advance to second. F8’s throw reaches F4 at second before R2 and R3 arrive at the base. The umpire signals an out. However, both runners think they are out and begin leaving the field.

RULING: R3 is out because of being forced. However, once the force was removed, R2 would have to be tagged out if he left the base. When R2 began leaving the field, he should be considered as having abandoned his effort to return or advance, and shall be declared out. (8-4-2j)

However, 8-4-2 says:

Any runner is out when he:

[...]

p. after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; or

(emphasis mine)

In my original post, he hadn't touched first base.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

FED Casebook says otherwise.   8-4-2 Sit. C and V.

But..... with FED, they are referencing "after reaching first base..."    Oy.   

 

Those aren't the relevant cases.

 

Try this (it's from an older book, so the number might have changed):

8.1.1 SITUATION B: F2 drops the third strike. B1 starts toward the dugout and F2 does not throw to first. B1 then makes a quick dash to first. RULING: If F2 does not throw to first, he risks failure to put out B1. However, B1 should be declared out for failure to attempt to reach first if he does not reach the base before the time of the next pitch, he reaches his bench or dugout area, or a half inning is ended because the infielders have left the diamond. (8-4-1i)

[BrianC14]

See my edit re: touching first base.   FED Casebook seems to contradict itself in Sit. C.    I think the implication here is that a runner is considered to have abandoned when he "heads for the dugout" e.g. leaves the baseline.

[noumpere]

Just now, BrianC14 said:

See my edit re: touching first base.   FED Casebook seems to contradict itself in Sit. C.    I think the implication here is that a runner is considered to have abandoned when he "heads for the dugout" e.g. leaves the baseline.

You're either mis-reading, or applying it where it shouldn't be applied.  While the case book has some contradictions, this isn't one of them.

[BrianC14]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

Those aren't the relevant cases.

 

Try this (it's from an older book, so the number might have changed):

8.1.1 SITUATION B: F2 drops the third strike. B1 starts toward the dugout and F2 does not throw to first. B1 then makes a quick dash to first. RULING: If F2 does not throw to first, he risks failure to put out B1. However, B1 should be declared out for failure to attempt to reach first if he does not reach the base before the time of the next pitch, he reaches his bench or dugout area, or a half inning is ended because the infielders have left the diamond. (8-4-1i)

 

It's the same in the new one..... so why does FED have one standard for a "runner" and another for a "batter runner" on a dropped 3K?    With the situation posed in the original post, the dropped 3K can turn into a circus.     *#%&* FED.   

[BrianC14]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

You're either mis-reading, or applying it where it shouldn't be applied.  While the case book has some contradictions, this isn't one of them.

Relax, I got it.    Searching for "abandon" only leads to 8-4-2.  

 

[BrianC14]

8-1-1 Sit. B:   "...if he reaches his bench or dugout area."

IN the dugout?   Two steps away?   Close enough for government work?  Close enough to hear the coach whisper?   What if his helmet has been put back in the gear bag, which has been carefully placed in a marked dead ball area adjacent to the "dugout area"?   It should be consistent with OBR/NCAA.   If the batter walks away, out of the circle, that's his problem for not knowing the situation.   (What properly trained umpire wouldn't be signaling and calling "no catch" ?)   

[BrianC14]

And yes, this is a contradiction in terms of applying a rule (or rules) for what constitutes abandonment.   If a runner can be called out for abandonment just by leaving the baseline (3 feet ?... or "heads for the dugout, as FED also terms it) then a batter-runner should be called out when he turns and "heads for the dugout" by leaving the circle on a dropped 3K.

[kylehutson]

38 minutes ago, BrianC14 said:

With the situation posed in the original post, the dropped 3K can turn into a circus.

Thus the reason I posted it.

[BrianC14]

11 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Thus the reason I posted it.

There are several fields that I work that are like the one you described.  The team that sits in the 1B side dugout has a distinct advantage if/when this happens. 

[Bob M]

 

4 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

8-1-1 Sit. B:   "...if he reaches his bench or dugout area."

IN the dugout?   Two steps away?   Close enough for government work?  Close enough to hear the coach whisper?   What if his helmet has been put back in the gear bag, which has been carefully placed in a marked dead ball area adjacent to the "dugout area"?   It should be consistent with OBR/NCAA.   If the batter walks away, out of the circle, that's his problem for not knowing the situation.   (What properly trained umpire wouldn't be signaling and calling "no catch" ?)   

He just has to reach a dead-ball area, same as LL

 

5 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

FED Casebook says otherwise.   8-4-2 Sit. C and V.

But..... with FED, they are referencing "after reaching first base..."    Oy.   

 

Situations C and V don't apply to U3K.

[BrianC14]

2 hours ago, Bob M said:

 

He just has to reach a dead-ball area, same as LL

 

Situations C and V don't apply to U3K.

Yes, I know.   And therein lies the inconsistency between what FED calls abandonment (once you've reached 1B) and another version of abandonment with respect to a dropped 3K.

[Mad Mike]

7 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

And yes, this is a contradiction in terms of applying a rule (or rules) for what constitutes abandonment.   If a runner can be called out for abandonment just by leaving the baseline (3 feet ?... or "heads for the dugout, as FED also terms it) then a batter-runner should be called out when he turns and "heads for the dugout" by leaving the circle on a dropped 3K.

We would not call the batter-runner out for leaving the baseline. Remember, the baseline only applies when a play is being made on the runner. At the moment the defense plays on him, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. ( Think about the 'skunk in the outfield play'.) 

The FED rule certainly has more latitude than OBR. Once he leaves the dirt circle, he is out. FED is more generous.

Looking at the BRD rules for FED it is clear that the 8-4-2p rule reads (edited): A runner is out if, AFTER TOUCHING FIRST, he abandons his attempt to touch the next base. The umpire must judge whether a runner heading for the dugout or his defensive position is abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

For OBR (revised), "No runner may, after reaching first base, leave the base path, obviously abandoning his attempt to touch the next base." (5.09b-2). The ball remains alive. (5.09-b-2 CMT)

[BrianC14]

2 minutes ago, Mad Mike said:

We would not call the batter-runner out for leaving the baseline. Remember, the baseline only applies when a play is being made on the runner. At the moment the defense plays on him, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. ( Think about the 'skunk in the outfield play'.) 

The FED rule certainly has more latitude than OBR. Once he leaves the dirt circle, he is out. FED is more generous.

Looking at the BRD rules for FED it is clear that the 8-4-2p rule reads (edited): A runner is out if, AFTER TOUCHING FIRST, he abandons his attempt to touch the next base. The umpire must judge whether a runner heading for the dugout or his defensive position is abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

For OBR (revised), "No runner may, after reaching first base, leave the base path, obviously abandoning his attempt to touch the next base." (5.09b-2). The ball remains alive. (5.09-b-2 CMT)

Répétez, Répétez (en Francais).      

Translation:  you are repeating what has already been expressed.   I am just saying what needs to be said:   That FED needs to come into common sense consistency with the rest of the baseball world.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

Répétez, Répétez (en Francais).      

Translation:  you are repeating what has already been expressed.   I am just saying what needs to be said:   That FED needs to come into common sense consistency with the rest of the baseball world.

All the codes refer to "abandonment" as (something like) "a runner after reaching first."  By definition, the BR cannot "abandon" (before first).

That's why J/R invented "desertion."  And, even before that, OBR and NCAA recognized that a D3K was different -- they, too, had the "reach the dugout" interp (same as FED).  It was only a few years ago that they changed it to "leave the circle."

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

All the codes refer to "abandonment" as (something like) "a runner after reaching first."  By definition, the BR cannot "abandon" (before first).

That's why J/R invented "desertion."  And, even before that, OBR and NCAA recognized that a D3K was different -- they, too, had the "reach the dugout" interp (same as FED).  It was only a few years ago that they changed it to "leave the circle."

And that change was not for "common sense". It was to speed up the game, not have to wait until the batter reached the dugout.

[BrianC14]

From J/R manual (this is from the 2008 edition, the earliest I have):

Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the batter-runner or first base [6.09b]. If such batter-runner is not trying for first base when he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate, he is out for desertion.  Furthermore, if the batter-runner has been given a reasonable opportunity to advance but gives indication that he is unaware of this opportunity or is choosing not to take advantage of it (lingers in the plate area, begins to remove batting gloves or equipment, moves toward his position or dugout, begins to argue, etc.) he is out for desertion. [NFHS 8.1.1b]

Now this is all well and good, and it serves as a clearly laid-out interpretation.   The problem is that neither the FED rule book nor the case book reflects anything remotely resembling this interpretation.   Mind you, this interpretation was defined by J/R at least nine years ago.   Maybe when the year 2045 rolls around FED will have caught up with J/R.