Potential Passing Runner?

[tankmjg24]

FED rules.  R1 and batter hits a pop fly behind the first baseman slightly out of the infield.  R1 returns to 1st and is standing on 1st base when BR runs through first.  F2, F3, and F9 cannot make the catch and the ball lands fair.  R1 then sprints to 2nd base after seeing the ball drop.  Instead of F9 throwing to 2nd base for the easy force out, he runs in and tags BR.  Defensive coach wants to argue first that BR should be out as he turned left after running through 1st base (he did, however he never made an attempt towards second).  After being told this, he then wants to argue that BR should be out as he passed R1.  So the main question here is after BR runs through 1st base with R1 standing on first, is he considered to have passed R1.

[grayhawk]

I'm not sure if there is an official interpretation on this, but I wouldn't consider the BR passing R1 until he is closer to second base than R1.  So merely running through the bag wouldn't be passing, IMO.

[maven]

10 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I'm not sure if there is an official interpretation on this, but I wouldn't consider the BR passing R1 until he is closer to second base than R1.  So merely running through the bag wouldn't be passing, IMO.

Agree. Overrunning ≠ advancing, so when the umpire ruled that the BR had merely overrun 1B, it follows that he could not have passed R1.

When the umpire ruled that the BR had not advanced or attempted to advance by "turning left," there was again no possibility of passing.

This would still be true even if R1 were stepping on 1B and "leaning" into foul ground, or some such.

[Radie 88]

I have a different question If you allow me to change the OP's situation a bit...

What if R1 never breaks for 2nd? He stays on 1st, the ball drops and BR has already run through the bag...

Assuming we are still saying that he has not advanced past the runner, since we are till saying that he didn't make an attempt at 2nd...

In this situation, is being past the base the same as being ON the base for the purpose of tagging the R1 for occupying a base at the "same" time as the BR?

Or do we make the fielder throw down to 2nd?

[stevis]

7 minutes ago, Radie said:

I have a different question If you allow me to change the OP's situation a bit...

What if R1 never breaks for 2nd? He stays on 1st, the ball drops and BR has already run through the bag...

Assuming we are still saying that he has not advanced past the runner, since we are till saying that he didn't make an attempt at 2nd...

In this situation, is being past the base the same as being ON the base for the purpose of tagging the R1 for occupying a base at the "same" time as the BR?

Or do we make the fielder throw down to 2nd?

R1 loses their right to the bag as soon as they're forced to go, right?  Don't see how this is different than F3 tagging R1 and 1B bag in the correct order to get a double play.

[Radie 88]

7 minutes ago, stevis said:

R1 loses their right to the bag as soon as they're forced to go, right?  Don't see how this is different than F3 tagging R1 and 1B bag in the correct order to get a double play.

I think I confused you and in turn, you definitely confused me..

There really shouldn't be any chance at a double play in this situation.. so I clearly bungled the explanation...

 

R1, less then 2 outs... Fly ball to the outfield... Looks like it will be caught so R1 returns to 1B... Ball drops in and BR over runs 1B with R1 standing on it...

Are they both "occupying" the same base (even with the BR 10 feet down the RF line? Would tagging the R1 AT THIS MOMENT result in the out or do we HAVE to wait until the BR physically returns to the base?

Obviously the smart thing to to just throw down to 2nd... But for the sake of playing devils advocate, let's ignore that for right now.

Are we making the fielder wait to apply the tag or is an overrun 1B the same as standing on it?

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, Radie said:

Are they both "occupying" the same base (even with the BR 10 feet down the RF line? Would tagging the R1 AT THIS MOMENT result in the out or do we HAVE to wait until the BR physically returns to the base?

It doesn't matter.  R1 is forced from first, so he's out if tagged whether BR is occupying first or not.

[stevis]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It doesn't matter.  R1 is forced from first, so he's out if tagged whether BR is occupying first or not.

Yes.  What I was trying to say, was that in this ^^^ manner, it's no different than the play where F3 picks up a ground ball with R1 hugging the base.   R1 has no safety at first base because the BR is forcing him to relinquish it.