Verbal call of safe on play at plate

[Guest Guest]

NFHS softball game. Two outs, runner on second.  Batter hits ball to outfielder who drops the ball.  Runner attempts to score and there is a play at the plate.  Catcher misses tag on close play and runner crosses home plate.  Umpire signals both with hands/arms and verbally that runner is safe.  Catcher then throws to third base in attempt to get batter/runner out at third. Batter/runner is safe at third and girl who was called safe at home returns to the dugout. Defensive coach asked home plate umpire for appeal that runner did not touch home plate.    Umpire overturns his verbal and physical signal of safe at home and calls runner out at home for not touching home plate.  Does the verbal call of safe originally signal to both teams that run scored?  Can the umpire then reverse his call to out?  I have seen tag plays at home plate signaled safe but no verbal call which indicates that catcher missed tag and runner did not touch plate and play is still live.  Should both the physical gesture of safe AND verbal call of safe on close play indicate to the runner that she is safe at home (run scored) and she does not have to retry to touch home plate?  Runner believed she touched home plate originally and did not retouch because she heard umpire verbally say "safe".

[cp9]

NFHS Baseball Umpires Manual
#43. VI. THE PLATE UMPIRE: ....For plays at the plate, the plate umpire should first set up a few steps behind the plate and on the third base line extended through the plate, and then adjust a few steps to either side depending on the throw and the play. The plate umpire needs to establish a clear line of sight through the play and not be screened from the play by either the catcher or the runner. On a play at home in which the runner misses home plate and the catcher missed tagging the runner, the umpire will make “no call.” Following the play and subsequent action, if the defense makes a valid and legal appeal, the plate umpire will then call the runner out.

 

NFHS Softball Umpires Manual
PLATE MECHINICS: Appeal at the Plate.
If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses the tag, the umpire should hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play, either the runner reaches to tag the plate or the catcher reaches to tag the runner. If no tag is made, the umpire should declare the runner SAFE. If a proper appeal play is made by the fielder, by either touching the runner or the plate with the ball prior to the runner touching the plate, the umpire should then declare the runner OUT.

[scrounge]

This is an area where I believe that Fed mechanics for baseball and softball likely differ. As I understand it - and I wouldn't bet more than a couple pennies on my softball understanding, as I don't do it - the softball mechanic is to signal safe, even on a missed plate. Then, if appealed, to call the out. I think that mechanic is asinine - but my opinion was not consulted. So from the description, given that it's that weird game of softball, sounds like it was the right mechanic. But I totally defer to anyone here who does softball. Which isn't many of us. Maybe there's a difference between the physical signal and verbal, I dunno. But in the end, it's still the runner's responsibility to make sure she touches the plate.

Now baseball? No, we would not indicate (or shouldn't at least) any signal if there's an obvious missed plate.

[maineump]

If there is a play at the plate, the umpire needs to make a call. Whether safe or out, a call needs to be made. If the tag was missed then a safe call is appropriate, but the call can be changed on appeal. If no call is made on the play, then it gives away the possible appeal, and it is up to the defense to figure it out.

[ALStripes17]

If there is a play at the plate, the umpire needs to make a call. Whether safe or out, a call needs to be made. If the tag was missed then a safe call is appropriate, but the call can be changed on appeal. If no call is made on the play, then it gives away the possible appeal, and it is up to the defense to figure it out.

Are you answering this for softball?

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[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, maineump said:

If there is a play at the plate, the umpire needs to make a call. Whether safe or out, a call needs to be made. If the tag was missed then a safe call is appropriate, but the call can be changed on appeal. If no call is made on the play, then it gives away the possible appeal, and it is up to the defense to figure it out.

In baseball this is incorrect,  In baseball if there is a missed tag and a missed touch there is no call.

Softball may differ.

[maineump]

3 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

Are you answering this for softball?

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My brother did ASA, said this was his understanding

[ALStripes17]

My brother did ASA, said this was his understanding

For softball it is.. Mechanics manual cite above now.

Baseball we don't signal.

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[maineump]

16 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

For softball it is.. Mechanics manual cite above now.

Baseball we don't signal.

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My answer was for softball, I asked him, I know that baseball does not signal. I didn't know the answer for softball, so I asked him.

[ALStripes17]

My answer was for softball, I asked him, I know that baseball does not signal. I didn't know the answer for softball, so I asked him.

I'm glad you answered my question with such a long answer

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[BretMan]

Yes, the baseball and softball mechanics are completely different.

For softball, the safe signal is a ruling on the tag attempt by the catcher, showing that it was unsuccessful. It doesn't necessarily mean that the runner has touched the plate. However, by rule, in both baseball and softball, this runner HAS scored- up until the point of a valid appeal being made. A runner who passes a base is considered to have touched it, so the run has scored- at least temporarily.

If properly appealed, then the runner would be out for missing the plate. From the description of the play, the umpire did exactly what he's supposed to do (but the runner didn't...she missed the plate!).

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

NFHS softball game. Two outs, runner on second.  Batter hits ball to outfielder who drops the ball.  Runner attempts to score and there is a play at the plate.  Catcher misses tag on close play and runner crosses home plate.  Umpire signals both with hands/arms and verbally that runner is safe.  Catcher then throws to third base in attempt to get batter/runner out at third. Batter/runner is safe at third and girl who was called safe at home returns to the dugout. Defensive coach asked home plate umpire for appeal that runner did not touch home plate.    Umpire overturns his verbal and physical signal of safe at home and calls runner out at home for not touching home plate.  Does the verbal call of safe originally signal to both teams that run scored?  Can the umpire then reverse his call to out?  I have seen tag plays at home plate signaled safe but no verbal call which indicates that catcher missed tag and runner did not touch plate and play is still live.  Should both the physical gesture of safe AND verbal call of safe on close play indicate to the runner that she is safe at home (run scored) and she does not have to retry to touch home plate?  Runner believed she touched home plate originally and did not retouch because she heard umpire verbally say "safe".

 

[Guest]

I asked the original question and I want to clarify a few points.  We actually have video.  The plate umpire both physically and verbally called "safe" before the catcher even finished her swipe tag.  He did not hesitate to see if the runner would try to retouch or if the catcher would try to re tag.  The runners heal actually touched the plate (but the video had to be re watched in slow motion and zoomed to be sure as live it could easily look like she did not touch.)  The video shows the initial call and then the home plate umpire took his eyes off the runner and took a couple of steps toward third to watch that play.  Then the runner, also on video, re touches home plate while the umpire is looking at the play at third and returns to the dugout.  The defensive coach, then appeals that the runner never initially touched home plate.  The home plate umpire asks the field umpire if he saw the play.  The field umpire did not.  The home plate umpire then reverses his own physical and immediate verbal call of safe and declares the runner out because he states the runner did not touch the plate.  The varsity level game ended on this play as it was the 3rd out of the bottom of the seventh and the runner declared out would have tied the game if safe.

I think the home plate umpire should not have changed his call on appeal even if the runner had not, in his mind, touched home plate initially because he took his eyes off the runner before the play was completely finished thus not allowing her to re touch the plate prior to her either returning to the dugout or an attempted re tag made and being called out of the baseline.

I think that if the home plate umpire, in his mind, does not think the runner touched home plate he should not make any verbal call nor take his eyes off the runner until the play is dead.  I know this can be very hard not to take your eyes off the runner in this situation in a two man crew when there may be plays at other bases.  If he does take his eyes off the runner, he should never make a call of out on appeal.  If there was no play at home plate (example if throw was cut off) the umpire does not verbally declare runner "safe" so isn't a no tag no touch of home plate considered a no play and no verbal call made?  The defense could then appeal that the runner never touched home plate and the runner be declared out on appeal.

Umpires, let me know what you think.

[ALStripes17]

I asked the original question and I want to clarify a few points.  We actually have video.  The plate umpire both physically and verbally called "safe" before the catcher even finished her swipe tag.  He did not hesitate to see if the runner would try to retouch or if the catcher would try to re tag.  The runners heal actually touched the plate (but the video had to be re watched in slow motion and zoomed to be sure as live it could easily look like she did not touch.)  The video shows the initial call and then the home plate umpire took his eyes off the runner and took a couple of steps toward third to watch that play.  Then the runner, also on video, re touches home plate while the umpire is looking at the play at third and returns to the dugout.  The defensive coach, then appeals that the runner never initially touched home plate.  The home plate umpire asks the field umpire if he saw the play.  The field umpire did not.  The home plate umpire then reverses his own physical and immediate verbal call of safe and declares the runner out because he states the runner did not touch the plate.  The varsity level game ended on this play as it was the 3rd out of the bottom of the seventh and the runner declared out would have tied the game if safe.

I think the home plate umpire should not have changed his call on appeal even if the runner had not, in his mind, touched home plate initially because he took his eyes off the runner before the play was completely finished thus not allowing her to re touch the plate prior to her either returning to the dugout or an attempted re tag made and being called out of the baseline.

I think that if the home plate umpire, in his mind, does not think the runner touched home plate he should not make any verbal call nor take his eyes off the runner until the play is dead.  I know this can be very hard not to take your eyes off the runner in this situation in a two man crew when there may be plays at other bases.  If he does take his eyes off the runner, he should never make a call of out on appeal.  If there was no play at home plate (example if throw was cut off) the umpire does not verbally declare runner "safe" so isn't a no tag no touch of home plate considered a no play and no verbal call made?  The defense could then appeal that the runner never touched home plate and the runner be declared out on appeal.

Umpires, let me know what you think.

We make mistakes. You've come to the wrong place if you're wanting us to throw one of our own under a bus. You got your answer.

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[scrounge]

This has been covered. Apparently the high school softball approved mechanic is to indeed signal safe. Verbal or physical it's still the same signal. Then the appeal is ruled upon.

Without the video, the rest isn't something I can comment upon. Get em next time.

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone who replied.  I was not attempting to throw anyone under the bus as someone implied, I was merely just trying to determine the proper mechanics and determine if they made sense or perhaps should be changed for the safety of everyone.  Some commented that the umpire needs to hesitate before making a call to see what happened next while others thought the umpire needs to make a call immediately and then wait for an appeal.  In order to protect the players from physical harm and the umpires from upset coaches and fans, I tend to think hesitation with no call (at least no verbal) should be the rule.  A physical call of arms extended would indicate no tag and no verbal call of safe on close play would clue the players that the play is not over.  The catcher could then attempt a re tag and the runner could attempt a re touch of the plate.  This would physically protect the players because then the runner would know if they could leave the plate area (touched plate, run counts) or if they needed to re touch plate.  If the runner never really knows on a close play, they would feel they would need to remain in contact with the plate for fear of a challenge.  If the player needs to remain in contact with the plate for fear of appeal or even try to slide back into the plate if they are uncertain if they touched  they could take the legs out of the catcher and be called for inference if the catcher was trying to continue to throw to another base if the umpire thought they touched the plate the first time.  It would also protect the umpires because then they could fully turn there attention to other potential plays occurring on the bases instead of trying to have to watch the runner for a re tag and try to watch other plays going on at the same time.  Basically; no tag, no touch of plate, no play, no call.  Verbal safe call, runner safe, leave the plate are for the safety of others still involved in the live play.  I mentioned the video simply to point out that the home plate umpire has too many responsibilities in this example.  If he stares at the runner to look for retouch, he is unable to monitor other live plays and in this example did not see the re touch but felt he had to call out because he did not see the player initially touch the plate. Maybe a definite rule would be great to minimize upset players and coaches.

[ElkOil]

3 hours ago, Guest said:

Thanks to everyone who replied.  I was not attempting to throw anyone under the bus as someone implied, I was merely just trying to determine the proper mechanics and determine if they made sense or perhaps should be changed for the safety of everyone.  Some commented that the umpire needs to hesitate before making a call to see what happened next while others thought the umpire needs to make a call immediately and then wait for an appeal.  In order to protect the players from physical harm and the umpires from upset coaches and fans, I tend to think hesitation with no call (at least no verbal) should be the rule.  A physical call of arms extended would indicate no tag and no verbal call of safe on close play would clue the players that the play is not over.  The catcher could then attempt a re tag and the runner could attempt a re touch of the plate.  This would physically protect the players because then the runner would know if they could leave the plate area (touched plate, run counts) or if they needed to re touch plate.  If the runner never really knows on a close play, they would feel they would need to remain in contact with the plate for fear of a challenge.  If the player needs to remain in contact with the plate for fear of appeal or even try to slide back into the plate if they are uncertain if they touched  they could take the legs out of the catcher and be called for inference if the catcher was trying to continue to throw to another base if the umpire thought they touched the plate the first time.  It would also protect the umpires because then they could fully turn there attention to other potential plays occurring on the bases instead of trying to have to watch the runner for a re tag and try to watch other plays going on at the same time.  Basically; no tag, no touch of plate, no play, no call.  Verbal safe call, runner safe, leave the plate are for the safety of others still involved in the live play.  I mentioned the video simply to point out that the home plate umpire has too many responsibilities in this example.  If he stares at the runner to look for retouch, he is unable to monitor other live plays and in this example did not see the re touch but felt he had to call out because he did not see the player initially touch the plate. Maybe a definite rule would be great to minimize upset players and coaches.

You now know why umpiring isn't as easy as some would have you believe.