Coach comments in plate meeting of 2nd game in DH

[grayhawk]

Worked a varsity DH on Monday and had the dish on the second game.  At the very beginning of the plate meeting, the visiting coach voiced his displeasure to my partner that during the first game, he was allowing the other team to crowd the plate and get hit by pitches that they leaned into.  There were about 4 HBP in the first game (all while the visitors were on defense) and a couple of them were pretty close (from my perspective) where the batter could have been kept at the plate.  During that game, the coach came out on my partner on one of the four.

So here he is, talking about the previous game in the plate meeting of the second game, and my partner isn't shutting him down.  I didn't feel that I should step in and shut it down since my partner is a veteran and is capable of handling his business.  I waited until there was a pause, and then simply said, "Are we ready to move on?"  The visiting coach said yes and that was the last we heard about it.  Would anyone have handled it differently?

BTW, the visiting coach arrived at the plate prior to the home coach, and started in on my partner before the home coach got to the plate.  The home coach did get to the plate before he finished complaining, but the home coach didn't say a word about it.

[maven]

Your partner's capacity to "handle his business" is evidently somewhat limited. Though I appreciate your eagerness to remain circumspect and not step on his ... pride, it seems to me that the coach's comments were just as much directed at you as at your partner. After all, he was not just venting, he was working you, so that you would not do in the second game what your partner did in the first game. (I'm assuming you were PU in the second game.) That's the point of raising the issue at the plate meeting, not immediately following the previous game.

So I think you would have been perfectly justified to step in and say something like, "Coach, I appreciate your concern, and I'll watch for it in this game." It acknowledges the point, commits you to nothing that you wouldn't otherwise do, and shuts him down without throwing partner under the bus (whether or not he deserved it).

[stkjock]

24 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Worked a varsity DH on Monday and had the dish on the second game.  

 

9 minutes ago, maven said:

(I'm assuming you were PU in the second game.) 

No need to assume...  

 

How would it be best for a coach to approach an umpire if he feels that something is being missed?

I've always just politely asked, "Blue could you keep an eye out for X"  In my experience the umpire has been receptive, whether or not he actually looked out for what I suggested or thought to himself, "Fu&* that jerk off"  I don't know.

 

 

[ElkOil]

9 minutes ago, stkjock said:

 

No need to assume...  

 

How would it be best for a coach to approach an umpire if he feels that something is being missed?

I've always just politely asked, "Blue could you keep an eye out for X"  In my experience the umpire has been receptive, whether or not he actually looked out for what I suggested or thought to himself, "Fu&* that jerk off"  I don't know.

 

 

It's highly dependent on the ump. I've worked with guys who stand there with folded arms asserting their dominance, and I've worked with guys who actually listen, take it into account, but seem like push-overs. I'm in the camp where I'll listen, get a little introspective to see if the coach has a good point, and then tell him I'll keep an eye out for it. But I won't let it drag out. And yes, I'll actually keep an eye out for it.

[maven]

12 minutes ago, stkjock said:

How would it be best for a coach to approach an umpire if he feels that something is being missed?

I've always just politely asked, "Blue could you keep an eye out for X"  In my experience the umpire has been receptive, whether or not he actually looked out for what I suggested or thought to himself, "Fu&* that jerk off"  I don't know.

I'm sure you run into all kinds of umpires: some listen to your concern, some ignore you, some argue with you, some think what you suggest.

I have no problem with coaches who ask me to look for something. I don't presume to see absolutely everything in every game, and if a team is systematically getting an unfair advantage I can watch for it.

We have a team around here that tries to cheat when they have R2 with less than 2 outs by bunting down the 1BL, and R2 cuts 30 feet off the 3B corner. He ends up at HP in a heartbeat, and the defense and umpires stand around and scratch their heads. This takes advantage of the fact that the BU is watching 1B and the PU is ruling on fair/foul, so nobody watches R2 cheat. If the offense is lucky, PU is up the line and has to dive out of the way to avoid the throw to F2, putting him in terrific position to rule on any play at the plate. Opposing coaches don't need to ask me to watch that play: we've already covered it in pre-game!

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, ElkOil said:

It's highly dependent on the ump. I've worked with guys who stand there with folded arms asserting their dominance, and I've worked with guys who actually listen, take it into account, but seem like push-overs. I'm in the camp where I'll listen, get a little introspective to see if the coach has a good point, and then tell him I'll keep an eye out for it. But I won't let it drag out. And yes, I'll actually keep an eye out for it.

Thanks Elk - so far I've not had the dominance type that I can recall.

1 minute ago, maven said:

I'm sure you run into all kinds of umpires: some listen to your concern, some ignore you, some argue with you, some think what you suggest.

I have no problem with coaches who ask me to look for something. I don't presume to see absolutely everything in every game, and if a team is systematically getting an unfair advantage I can watch for it.

We have a team around here that tries to cheat when they have R2 with less than 2 outs by bunting down the 1BL, and R2 cuts 30 feet off the 3B corner. He ends up at HP in a heartbeat, and the defense and umpires stand around and scratch their heads. This takes advantage of the fact that the BU is watching 1B and the PU is ruling on fair/foul, so nobody watches R2 cheat. Opposing coaches don't need to ask me to watch that play: we've already covered it in pre-game!

Thanks Maven

 

FWIW - I'll typically point out something if it seems systematic by the opposing team.

[grayhawk]

32 minutes ago, maven said:

Your partner's capacity to "handle his business" is evidently somewhat limited. Though I appreciate your eagerness to remain circumspect and not step on his ... pride, it seems to me that the coach's comments were just as much directed at you as at your partner. After all, he was not just venting, he was working you, so that you would not do in the second game what your partner did in the first game. (I'm assuming you were PU in the second game.) That's the point of raising the issue at the plate meeting, not immediately following the previous game.

So I think you would have been perfectly justified to step in and say something like, "Coach, I appreciate your concern, and I'll watch for it in this game." It acknowledges the point, commits you to nothing that you wouldn't otherwise do, and shuts him down without throwing partner under the bus (whether or not he deserved it).

Believe me, I recognized the dual purpose of his comments.  I also recognized that I was in a no-win situation if one of his pitchers hit a batter and I kept the batter at the plate.  Unless it would have been obvious to everyone that the batter leaned into it, the home coach would be in my ear telling me that I allowed the visiting coach to influence my call.  This would happen whether I told him I would look out for it or not.  Fortunately for me, only a visiting team batter was hit, and the home coach jokingly said, "Did he lean into it?"  The visiting coach (in the 3B coach's box) got a chuckle out of it as well.

[ElkOil]

3 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Thanks Elk - so far I've not had the dominance type that I can recall.

Thanks Maven

 

FWIW - I'll typically point out something if it seems systematic by the opposing team.

And certainly, how well this interaction goes is based on the rapport the coach and umps established during the first game. 

I was working a game where I was PU and balled a great pitch on the inside corner which should have been strike 3. Just a brain fart. I can't tell you why I did it. Luckily, there was no consequence as the batter grounded out. But the coach, with whom I had established a good relationship, came up to me between innings and asked with genuine curiosity, "What was wrong with that one pitch?"

I said, "Me. It was a perfect pitch. That's my one for the game." He laughed, jogged off and we went on with the game without incident.

So for things like this, credibility is also a key component, which comes with one, being a good ump, which begets two, establishing trust.

[maven]

8 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

 Unless it would have been obvious to everyone that the batter leaned into it, the home coach would be in my ear telling me that I allowed the visiting coach to influence my call.  This would happen whether I told him I would look out for it or not. 

This happens all the time in basketball: a player is fouled, coach yells, "That's a foul!" I blow my whistle, and other coach says, "Don't let him call the game!"

You say it's no-win, but remember that every such situation is no-lose, too, as no option is worse than another.

[umpstu]

49 minutes ago, maven said:

I'm sure you run into all kinds of umpires: some listen to your concern, some ignore you, some argue with you, some think what you suggest.

I have no problem with coaches who ask me to look for something. I don't presume to see absolutely everything in every game, and if a team is systematically getting an unfair advantage I can watch for it.

We have a team around here that tries to cheat when they have R2 with less than 2 outs by bunting down the 1BL, and R2 cuts 30 feet off the 3B corner. He ends up at HP in a heartbeat, and the defense and umpires stand around and scratch their heads. This takes advantage of the fact that the BU is watching 1B and the PU is ruling on fair/foul, so nobody watches R2 cheat. If the offense is lucky, PU is up the line and has to dive out of the way to avoid the throw to F2, putting him in terrific position to rule on any play at the plate. Opposing coaches don't need to ask me to watch that play: we've already covered it in pre-game!

That's called the Mississippi Power Play. Seen it frequently when I was first starting out and working in Memphis.

[ricka56]

4 hours ago, maven said:

So I think you would have been perfectly justified to step in and say something like, "Coach, I appreciate your concern, and I'll watch for it in this game."

Maybe I'm being sensitive, but if my partner said that, I'd be feeling the bus tire tracks. Saying you'll watch it in this game infers that I wasn't watching for it in the last game. We'd have a problem.

You are right in that this coach is working the new PU, and I wouldn't put up with it. "Whoa, whoa, We're not rehashing history here" . If he continues, "Coach, you have to know better than bringing this up here and now, you have to stop now or you'll be ejected". Then let him decide if he wants an early dismissal. 

Rehashing plays from previous games that you didn't like the call on is asking begging for an ejection.

4 hours ago, stkjock said:

How would it be best for a coach to approach an umpire if he feels that something is being missed?

I've always just politely asked, "Blue could you keep an eye out for X"  In my experience the umpire has been receptive, whether or not he actually looked out for what I suggested or thought to himself, "Fu&* that jerk off"  I don't know.

You: Blue could you keep an eye out for X
me: sure (at my discretion, I will consider his request or ignore him)
you: <anything more on the subject>
me: refer to above bud nipping.