How many outs?

[johnnyg08]

Bases loaded.  0 out.  Batter hits a shallow fly ball to short CF and F8 runs in to catch the ball and he drops it.

F8 throws the ball home for a force out and F2 throws to F5 for a force out.  R2 commits a FPSR violation as he slides to the left of 3B taking out F5.  

How many are out?  

[jpperez14]

2?
I am not sure if FPSR automatically rewards another out unless you believe the slide prevented a triple play?

[ElkOil]

Two are out at the bases and two are out of the game.

[Cav]

NFHS game: 3 outs; R3 on a force, R2 on a force and the BR because of R2's violation.

[noumpere]

Two are out at the bases and two are out of the game.

​Why is anyone out of the game?

 

Good question by johnny.  I'll go with three outs.

 

How about this one -- Bases loaded.  BR grounds to F4 who bobbles it.  The play at first is going to be close and BR slides inside the line and takes out F3.  BR isn't forced, so can you have a FPSR violation?  It's a safety rule in addition to an interference rule -- so shouldn't we have "something?"  What's the penalty?

 

(I'm sure I'll see this in the game AFTER a fielder intentionally throws the ball OOP to stop a runner who left early from returning)

[maven]

 

PLAY 2: How about this one -- Bases loaded.  BR grounds to F4 who bobbles it.  The play at first is going to be close and BR slides inside the line and takes out F3.  BR isn't forced, so can you have a FPSR violation?  It's a safety rule in addition to an interference rule -- so shouldn't we have "something?"  What's the penalty?

 

(I'm sure I'll see this in the game AFTER a fielder intentionally throws the ball OOP to stop a runner who left early from returning)

​I agree: 3 outs in the OP (Cav has diagnosed them).

For PLAY 2: I don't think we can properly get an FPSR violation here, but the INT is still covered by 8-4-2b (illegally altering the play of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play).

I would therefore apply the FED penalty for INT: if a double play was "possible" (= it was a double play ball more or less cleanly fielded) then the runner who interfered is out plus the other runner likely to have been played on; otherwise, just one out. So in this instance, given F4's bobble and a close play on the BR, I'm getting just 1 out.

[noumpere]

 

For PLAY 2: I don't think we can properly get an FPSR violation here, but the INT is still covered by 8-4-2b (illegally altering the play of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play).

 

​Why is the slide illegal if it's not a FSPR violation?

[maven]

​Why is the slide illegal if it's not a FSPR violation?

​The clause from 8-4-2b that I quoted is not governed by the subordinate clause, "on a force play," which occurs AFTER it.

I did not say that the slide was illegal, I said his hindrance is covered by the INT rule, not the FPSR rule.

[noumpere]

I'm not trying to play games, and I don't have my books here.  How did BR "illegally alter the play?"  The slide meets all the requirements of 2-SLIDE (assuming no force play), and BR did not grab F3 or anything like that.

[ElkOil]

​Why is anyone out of the game?

​The runner took out F5, so I'll EJ on MC.  Then, the coach is gonna come running out to argue and say something he shouldn't say.

[maven]

​The runner took out F5, so I'll EJ on MC.  Then, the coach is gonna come running out to argue and say something he shouldn't say.

​Unless he did something besides slide into him — and I would not "assume that into" the description of the play — that's not MC.

[maven]

I'm not trying to play games, and I don't have my books here.  How did BR "illegally alter the play?"  The slide meets all the requirements of 2-SLIDE (assuming no force play), and BR did not grab F3 or anything like that.

​FED wants fielders making a play at a base protected from runners sliding into the base, while recognizing that sliding runners have to go somewhere. Hence the FPSR attempts to balance safety considerations with the traditions of baseball.

Since the BR is not forced to 1B, we can make the case that the FPSR does not apply there. But the rationale for it does: FED simply does NOT want sliding runners "taking out" fielders making a play at a base.

Contact away from the base at 1B — what would be a FPSR violation at any other base — is thus illegal contact. If that BR had met the standard of the FPSR on his slide but F3 was still contacted, that would have to be ruled incidental contact, just as it would be at any other base.

As you can see, I'm looking for a way to extend the FPSR to 1B (even though, as you observe, this is definitely a TWP, and we're moving into "angels on the head of a pin" territory). My justification for doing so is that the FPSR is a safety rule, which FED prioritizes above almost anything else. This is my interp, for which I have no independent authority: use at your own risk!

[noumpere]

​

As you can see, I'm looking for a way to extend the FPSR to 1B (even though, as you observe, this is definitely a TWP, and we're moving into "angels on the head of a pin" territory). My justification for doing so is that the FPSR is a safety rule, which FED prioritizes above almost anything else. This is my interp, for which I have no independent authority: use at your own risk!

​That makes sense, and I'm (mostly) looking for that, too.  I just thought you had something specific.

 

But, Suppose R2 only, going to third on a batted ball, the throw pulls F5 toward the outfield, and R2  slides toward the outfield side (but within reach of the base) and knocks F5 down.  No roll block, R2 is on the ground, no reaching, etc.  I don't think we get anything here. ...

[maven]

​That makes sense, and I'm (mostly) looking for that, too.  I just thought you had something specific.

 

PLAY 3: But, Suppose R2 only, going to third on a batted ball, the throw pulls F5 toward the outfield, and R2  slides toward the outfield side (but within reach of the base) and knocks F5 down.  No roll block, R2 is on the ground, no reaching, etc.  I don't think we get anything here. ...

​I agree. Collisions happen, and not all of them are illegal. If it can't be properly characterized as "taking out the fielder," then it's not the kind of action FED is looking to prohibit.

Your PLAY 3 reminds me of the FED case play where the throw pulls F3 off the bag and the BR collides with him before he has the ball: if that collision occurs after the base, it's (other things equal) nothing; if in front of the base, it's OBS. (FED 8.3.2K)

I'd probably apply the same reasoning to PLAY 3.

[indianaumpire15]

NFHS game: 3 outs; R3 on a force, R2 on a force and the BR because of R2's violation.

If the BR has already reached 1B by the time R2 commits the violation, does that change anything?  And why is BR out b/c of R2?  Any rule/case book references?

[maven]

If the BR has already reached 1B by the time R2 commits the violation, does that change anything?  And why is BR out b/c of R2?  Any rule/case book references?

​No, the BR is out by rule for the other runner's FPSR violation. FED 8-4-2b PENALTY

[noumpere]

If the BR has already reached 1B by the time R2 commits the violation, does that change anything?  And why is BR out b/c of R2?  Any rule/case book references?

​It's always BR, and I think there's a statement in the book to the effect that "it doesn't matter if another play was possible"

[johnnyg08]

Assume no Malicious Contact for the purpose of this discussion.  I saw an earlier post regarding MC, and I intentionally omitted that piece.  

Anyway, good discussion.  Thanks fellas.

Minus the FPSR, we actually had this play yesterday.  After it happened, I try to "what if" other relevant situations, I was standing over at first base running through my mind if we could get the BR play on this and I couldn't find a reason why not.  

 

[indianaumpire15]

​It's always BR, and I think there's a statement in the book to the effect that "it doesn't matter if another play was possible"

​No, the BR is out by rule for the other runner's FPSR violation. FED 8-4-2b PENALTY

Thanks guys.

[noumpere]

Assume no Malicious Contact for the purpose of this discussion.  I saw an earlier post regarding MC, and I intentionally omitted that piece.  

Anyway, good discussion.  Thanks fellas.

Minus the FPSR, we actually had this play yesterday.  After it happened, I try to "what if" other relevant situations, I was standing over at first base running through my mind if we could get the BR play on this and I couldn't find a reason why not.  

 

​That's a great way to learn and to be ready for the unusual play when it happens.  I try to tell all my umpire trainees to do that, (not that you area trainee), but not too many do so.

[johnnyg08]

​That's a great way to learn and to be ready for the unusual play when it happens.  I try to tell all my umpire trainees to do that, (not that you area trainee), but not too many do so.

​Thanks @noumpere I may not be a trainee any longer, but I think all of us are always learning.  I've found success hypothesizing scenarios, then going to the BRD, relevant rule book, or here to gather input.  That preparation can be invaluable especially when working a game where everything seems to be running smoothly.  One bounce here or there can burn the field down.  We have to try and be ready for everything!!  

[jpperez14]

Bases loaded.  0 out.  Batter hits a shallow fly ball to short CF and F8 runs in to catch the ball and he drops it.

F8 throws the ball home for a force out and F2 throws to F5 for a force out.  R2 commits a FPSR violation as he slides to the left of 3B taking out F5.  

How many are out?  

​So is the correct answer 3 outs? because of the FPSR or is it 2 outs because there wasn't a possibility of getting another out?

[noumpere]

​So is the correct answer 3 outs? because of the FPSR or is it 2 outs because there wasn't a possibility of getting another out?

​On a FPSR, you do not need "the possibility of getting another out.:

 

Until FED chimes in, we won't know for sure, so you can take the consensus here, or ignore it.

[Cav]

​So is the correct answer 3 outs? 

NFHS: yes.