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Mechanics Question

POLOGREEN

By POLOGREEN
in Umpire Mechanics

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Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

It's not a typical rotation situation so unless BU has to go out on a catch/no-catch trouble ball then it's the BU's call for plays at third. The touch of third is the PU's.

LMSANS

LMSANS

Posted
Posted

It's not a typical rotation situation so unless BU has to go out on a catch/no-catch trouble ball then it's the BU's call for plays at third. The touch of third is the PU's.

What he said...:(

Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

I got dinged on an eval game in the fall where we had a fair/foul trouble ball w/ nobody aboard. In getting in position to make the f/f call I was 3/4 of the way to 3rd. I yelled to my partner that I'd take the play at third if he came. My partner acknowledged and I did get the out at third.

In our post game discussion my partner (the evaluator) told me I need to make my f/f ruling and hustle back to the plate. If I as PU take that play at third and there is an overthrow and then the play ends up being at home, we've got a problem. But he said I had great hustle...

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

The way I see it once you said "I've got third" the BU should have rotated to HP

With no runners on base (and I'll assume that Base Umpire does not go out) - this is base umpire's call all the way. Nothing unusual about that rotation.

CCA Manual, Page 61.

If Base Umpire does go out (should only go out on a trouble ball hit to R/C gap and toward the RF foul line) then UIC has runner all the way to 3B, and Base Umpire will make his catch/no catch call, then high tail it (in foul territory) to home plate.

There are no other times when the base umpire would cover the plate in 2-man system.

Old Nr 24

Old Nr 24

Posted
Posted

The way I see it once you said "I've got third" the BU should have rotated to HP

Absolutely, the standard clockwise rotation, or cover your partner's back. Sounds like your evaluator takes all these mechanics as gospel and doesn't understand they can (and will/usually do) change with the flow of the game.

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

I've always understood the BU to take the last runner to third regardless of the situation.

That's correct.

If anyone is working the bases in 2-man, and they start in 'A', and the base umpire doesn't go out (read that: base umpire comes IN to take the runner) and then you hear UIC say "I've got 3rd" in this situation, then the UIC has poked the pooch on the play. At no time should the base umpire come to cover the plate on this. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

Read the play and use the proper rotations, and all works out well.

scobes7

scobes7

Posted
Posted

I am assuming that the BU went out to make a catch/no catch call....He very well could end up getting beat to 3rd by a fast runner running hard out of the box...that is why we would rotate.

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted (edited)

I am assuming that the BU went out to make a catch/no catch call....He very well could end up getting beat to 3rd by a fast runner running hard out of the box...that is why we would rotate.

From my earlier post:

If Base Umpire does go out (should only go out on a trouble ball hit to R/C gap and toward the RF foul line) then UIC has runner all the way to 3B, and Base Umpire will make his catch/no catch call, then high tail it (in foul territory) to home plate.

There are no other times when the base umpire would cover the plate in 2-man system.

If base umpire comes in, he's got the runner all the way to 3B. There's no way the B/R is going to beat the base umpire to 3B on this. Think about it - as base umpire, you: Pause. Read. React. So in the latter case, you come into the infield - you're already ahead of the B/R - (you come in, make your pivot, watch him touch 1B, glance to the ball, slide through the working area behind the mound, watch B/R touch 2B, slide to your left some more, glance to the ball, watch runner proceed to 3B, and you're now in position to make a call.

UIC, during all this, has read his partner... he sees him come in, then he moves up the line "to the library" as some guys call it, (about 1/3 of the way up the line is sufficient); then he simply reads the play/runner's actions, and retreats to home plate when necessary (I usually time this to coincide when the runner has rounded 2B). At NO TIME should the UIC go up to 3B on this.

The reason I wait for B/R to round and commit to 3B is that I will still be 1/3 of the way up the line in the event that B/R breaks off his try for 3B, and ends up in a rundown - then I can easily move up to 3B and take that end of the rundown. Only at that point would I tell my partner "Bob, I've got this end of it" or "Bob, I'm here at third".

Edited by BrianC14
Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

I actually agreed with my eval (and it wasn't ump81 so I'm not buttering up) when I made the call of having third he would be in the b-ish part of the working area and pretty far from home. With a HS kids speed he'd really be in a bad position to try and get the call at HP. Whereas if I made my f/f ruling and got back I'd be there in time and be ready for any call at the plate. But the important thing was we communicated and knew what each other were doing so we didn't get in a predicament.

I do believe that sometimes you need to deviate from the standard, but make sure you have a partner who is knowledgeable enough to know what is going on and react appropriately.

POLOGREEN

POLOGREEN

Posted
  • Author
Posted

This is why the book was saying we should pre-game this with our partners and why having a good pre-game is important. They were saying that many people do different things and we should get on the same page before the game.

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

This is why the book was saying we should pre-game this with our partners and why having a good pre-game is important. They were saying that many people do different things and we should get on the same page before the game.

Bingo, POLO!

I've had differences of opinion on some rotations during pre-game, and it has helped a great deal in those cases to have the CCA manual right there in my car to make sure we both see the graphics that point out who is supposed to be where.

Majordave

Majordave

Posted
Posted

Us to use the CCA manual for pre-game meeting of umpires. There is a checklist page and we both just open that up and go down the page discussing things. If there is a rotation question or issue we have it right there to refer to.

I liked it so much in college games last year that I started doing it in HS games. Some of those older guys really balked at first. Now they know that I want to do it and I will do it anyway so they just listen and go with it.

A couple have remarked that it really helps. I know it does.

You can never be perfect but you can try.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

The way I see it once you said "I've got third" the BU should have rotated to HP

First the PU shouldn't rotate to third. If he does, then he still has to get the play at home on a overthrow. The BU SHOULD NOT COVER HOME!

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

Us to use the CCA manual for pre-game meeting of umpires. There is a checklist page and we both just open that up and go down the page discussing things. If there is a rotation question or issue we have it right there to refer to.

I liked it so much in college games last year that I started doing it in HS games. Some of those older guys really balked at first. Now they know that I want to do it and I will do it anyway so they just listen and go with it.

A couple have remarked that it really helps. I know it does.

You can never be perfect but you can try.

Part of my "improve" process this season is to copy that page (mine will be laminated) and hand it out to each guy I work with. :)

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

In a 2 man crew, "When would the BU ever cover home"? Maybe I'm the green one here but I am not aware of any situation that would require the BU to cover home...

I'm not trying to be an egotist here, Deuce, but if you'll go back & read my posts you'll see that there is ONE time / situation when the base umpire comes in to cover the plate.

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

Us to use the CCA manual for pre-game meeting of umpires. There is a checklist page and we both just open that up and go down the page discussing things. If there is a rotation question or issue we have it right there to refer to.

I liked it so much in college games last year that I started doing it in HS games. Some of those older guys really balked at first. Now they know that I want to do it and I will do it anyway so they just listen and go with it.

A couple have remarked that it really helps. I know it does.

You can never be perfect but you can try.

By the way, I've also got a detailed checklist that I obtained from clinic led by Bill Davis; it's a really nicely laid out list that covers everything for a pregame - - from catch responsibilities to who's rotating where and when.

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