Fourth Out Appeal

[kanedog]

I realize there has been great discussion surrounding the advantageous 4th out appeal.  I have numerous questions on the test and when I read 8-6-b9-AR, is it stating that the order of appeals does not matter in the advantageous 4th out appeal.

 

 

(9) If there are two outs before the appeal on a runner, the appeal becoming the third out, no runners following the appealed out shall score, and if the appeal is a force out, no runners preceding or following the appealed out shall score. (See Rule 2 - Force Play.)

 

A.R. -- If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order unless it is an advantageous "fourth out" appeal.

 

 

Ex.. R2 and R3. 1 out.  B4 hits a gap shot.  R3 scores. R2 misses third base and B4 misses first base.  If the defense appeals B4 and then R2, does the run score.  According to the AR, the run would count since one of the outs was a force out.

 

Thanks.

[Replacematt]

Your sit depends on the number of out to begin. The defense can only take the advantageous out if the outs in question are third or subsequent out. The idea that "the run would count because one of the outs was a force out" is erroneous. The run would count if the third out is not a force. It would not count if the third (or subsequent) out is a force.

[kanedog]

I did mean to say would not count.  

 

I was reading too much into my question.  My situation the 2nd out is the force, the third is the appeal of R2 so the run scores.

 

Thanks.

[maven]

I did mean to say would not count.  

 

I was reading too much into my question.  My situation the 2nd out is the force, the third is the appeal of R2 so the run scores.

 

Thanks.

 

Correct, and that's exactly the point of requiring the defense to appeal in the correct order. Only if the third out is a force out or made by the BR before legally acquiring 1B does the run not score.

 

A "fourth out" is of course something of a misnomer, since in order to be recorded it must be advantageous (i.e., prevent a run), in which case it supersedes and replaces what had been the third out. So again, the (now) third out would end up being a force out or the BR before reaching 1B in order for the run not to score.

[Replacematt]

Only if the third out is a force out or made by the BR before legally acquiring 1B does the run not score.

Or a preceding runner, for situations other than the OP.

[kanedog]

Thanks Maven.

[noumpere]

I think to help answer the test questions, you also need to read 8-5j EXCP: "No runner can be forced out if a runner who follows in the batting order is put out first.  However, if a runner is put out during live action (my emphasis), if does not remove the force on any runners who might subsequently be declared out for a running infraction." 

 

So, I have two questions on my test relating to this:

 

#1  The bases are loaded with one out in the bottom of the ninth. The home team is trailing by one run. The batter gets a base hit into the right-centerfield gap. R2 and R3 score. R1 goes to third while the batter-runner stops at second. The defense appeals the batter-runner missing first, and then R1 for missing second and they both are declared out.

 

#2  R3 and R2 with one out. B4 doubles to right. R3 and R2 both score but R2 misses third and B4 misses first on his way to second. The defense properly appeals that B4 missed first and then appeals that R2 missed third.

 

In both of these, I answer that the defense appealed out of order, it becomes a time play, and two (play 1) and one (play 2) runs score.  (Only the last part about the number of runs is actually the test answer).

 

Agree?

[Jimurray]

I'm of the opinion (based on Wendelstedt in OBR) that the order of appeals only matters with a force/BR out at 1B and non force appeal. So I would agree with you on #2 and disagree on #1. The force existed at the time of the miss. But NCAA might disagree with me and Wendelstedt.

Edited to add the BR out to be semantically correct.

[Haid D' Salaami]

I realize there has been great discussion surrounding the advantageous 4th out appeal.  I have numerous questions on the test and when I read 8-6-b9-AR, is it stating that the order of appeals does not matter in the advantageous 4th out appeal.

 

 

(9) If there are two outs before the appeal on a runner, the appeal becoming the third out, no runners following the appealed out shall score, and if the appeal is a force out, no runners preceding or following the appealed out shall score. (See Rule 2 - Force Play.)

 

A.R. -- If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order unless it is an advantageous "fourth out" appeal.

 

 

Ex.. R2 and R3. 1 out.  B4 hits a gap shot.  R3 scores. R2 misses third base and B4 misses first base.  If the defense appeals B4 and then R2, does the run score.  According to the AR, the run would count since one of the outs was a force out.

 

Thanks.

hold on... the BR was not a force out... we need to fix this now.. the BR is never a force out at 1st, never, not today or tomorrow... if the 3rd out is recorded before the BR reaches 1st then no run scores.

In your example only 1 run scores...cause they appealed in the wrong order.. if they would have appealed R2 at 3rd, then BR at 1st then no runs score.

[Jimurray]

I realize there has been great discussion surrounding the advantageous 4th out appeal.  I have numerous questions on the test and when I read 8-6-b9-AR, is it stating that the order of appeals does not matter in the advantageous 4th out appeal.

 

 

(9) If there are two outs before the appeal on a runner, the appeal becoming the third out, no runners following the appealed out shall score, and if the appeal is a force out, no runners preceding or following the appealed out shall score. (See Rule 2 - Force Play.)

 

A.R. -- If the defense will make more than one appeal, the defense must appeal in the correct order unless it is an advantageous "fourth out" appeal.

 

 

Ex.. R2 and R3. 1 out.  B4 hits a gap shot.  R3 scores. R2 misses third base and B4 misses first base.  If the defense appeals B4 and then R2, does the run score.  According to the AR, the run would count since one of the outs was a force out.

 

Thanks.

hold on... the BR was not a force out... we need to fix this now.. the BR is never a force out at 1st, never, not today or tomorrow... if the 3rd out is recorded before the BR reaches 1st then no run scores.In your example only 1 run scores...cause they appealed in the wrong order.. if they would have appealed R2 at 3rd, then BR at 1st then no runs score.

This might be correct in NCAA. Well see what answer they want when it's posted. When you were trained in OBR what was the interp? Wendelstedt says the order doesn't matter if the force existed at the time of the miss.

[Replacematt]

I have an email from Jim Paronto that NCAA holds that the force is removed once a following runner is appealed. Thus, with one out, appealing R1 then BR results in runs being nullified, but BR then R1 makes the third out a time play.

[Jimurray]

I have an email from Jim Paronto that NCAA holds that the force is removed once a following runner is appealed. Thus, with one out, appealing R1 then BR results in runs being nullified, but BR then R1 makes the third out a time play.

Then the wording of the rule would make sense. NCAA wants the defense to appeal in proper order when action is relaxed. But it does not require it during a play like this:

R1, one out, base hit, R1 misses 2B, BR misses 1B rounding and is halfway to 2B when F3 calls for the ball from the outfielder,about to throw, announcing the miss. BR is out on the appeal and R1 scores. In this case R1's miss is still a force.