Fence Within a Fence

[tankmjg24]

Alright everyone, my association covers a middle school league (FED Rules) that uses a portable fence on a regular sized field. The portable fence does not cover the length of the entire foul territory though and ends about a foot past the foul line. I believe that once the ball clears the fence that the ball is dead. This has only happened a few times but it has. Others say that if the ball is played on and the fielder does not raise their hands that the ball cannot be ruled dead. If anyone has a rule cite please let me know it. Thanks

[Replacematt]

I'm having trouble picturing this layout, but based off what I think you are saying...

 

If a ball's out of play, it's dead. If DBT is behind the fence, and an imaginary line extended off either end of the fence, then a ball behind that line is dead. If it's not DBT, it's not. Where judgement comes in (sometimes) is determining if the ball's final position is due to the hit or the fielder.

[Rich Ives]

The others are wrong. Check the requirements for a home run or "ground rule" double.

[tankmjg24]

So if you want a visual picture I have tried to draw it out (I am no artist though so take that into account).  The gray lines are the foul lines and the blue line is the portable fence.  As you can see the portable fence does not extend all the way to the real fence.  You have to draw an imaginary line from the end of the portable fence and everything past this line is considered dead ball territory.

 

 

[Rich Ives]

SO?  The ball cleared the fence in fair territory. It's the "real" fence for the MS game.  If on the fly it's a home run. If on a bounce it's a double.  By rule.

 

Given it's a MS game you probably had a rookie umpire who isn't totally up to speed yet.

[Jocko]

@tankmjg24 - I'll answer your question with a question. If a ball enters the dugout (DBT) and ricochets back into LBT and F3 picks it up and throws it home in time to retire the runner attempting to score, is R3 out?

Of course not.

The reason they throw their hands up is so we can verify the ball went OOP. If you're POSITIVE it did, you kill it. If you aren't sure and he plays it, it's his fault for not giving you the opportunity to do your job.

[Mike Prince]

So what you are asking is what happens if a fair ball bounds into foul ground past first or third base and passes the edge of the temporary fence?  As you said that would be DBT/OOP, a 2-base award from TOP.  But I do not have a FED rule cite handy, this is more likely covered in the ground rules of the specific site.

[tankmjg24]

The issue is not whether that area is considered dead ball territory or what the award is.  Everyone is on the same page that the area past the imaginary line is dead ball territory and everyone agrees that the award is two bases from TOP (unless the fielder does something to make the ball go into area).  

 

The issue is that some (actually the majority) say that if the ball is played on that it cannot be ruled dead.  Here is an example that occurred the other night.  Bases are loaded and there is a left handed hitter up to bat.  He hits the ball right down the line and the ball tails into this area.  The right fielder gives chase and fields the ball about 5 feet into this dead ball territory.  All the runners scored and BR ended up with a triple.  According to those that would not rule the ball dead, it is in play because the fielder played the ball and did not raise his hands.  I know that this is not the correct ruling and once we as umpires see the ball go into dead ball territory to rule accordingly.  The problem I am having is trying to convince everyone else to rule this away.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Prince]

In that case @Jocko has given you your answer.

[tankmjg24]

I have tried to give a similar scenario to them as @Jocko stated.  In this scenario they agree that it would be considered dead but claim this is a different situation.  Seems as if  I am fighting a losing battle.

[ALStripes17]

The issue is not whether that area is considered dead ball territory or what the award is. Everyone is on the same page that the area past the imaginary line is dead ball territory and everyone agrees that the award is two bases from TOP (unless the fielder does something to make the ball go into area).

The issue is that some (actually the majority) say that if the ball is played on that it cannot be ruled dead. Here is an example that occurred the other night. Bases are loaded and there is a left handed hitter up to bat. He hits the ball right down the line and the ball tails into this area. The right fielder gives chase and fields the ball about 5 feet into this dead ball territory. All the runners scored and BR ended up with a triple. According to those that would not rule the ball dead, it is in play because the fielder played the ball and did not raise his hands. I know that this is not the correct ruling and once we as umpires see the ball go into dead ball territory to rule accordingly. The problem I am having is trying to convince everyone else to rule this away.

The way im envisioning all this (with the diagram), I don't see how you can rule a dead ball so positively in a 2-man crew (assumption). If its obviously in DBT, kill it but if there's a doubt, let the player lead you to the promised land :)

[maineump]

The ground rules really need to be covered at the plate meeting. How does the home team play that other fence?

If they can't decide, then I would rule - from the edge of the temporary fence - straight to the real fence is an imaginary line - that would deem the dead ball territory. I would consider this the same as a field that isn't full enclosed. From that line towards home plate everything would be in play, just as though that temp fence went all the way to the real fence.

 

If the ball goes beyond that line - DEAD Ball - If there is a question on a ball in the area, then have the fielder throw his hands up, but tell the coaches to keep the runners moving. We can always kill the play and place the runners after. Like a stuck ball in a fence - fielder digs for it = LIVE ball, hands up = DEAD ball.

 

We all have fields that aren't fully enclosed, how would you handle them? It seems too simple to me - maybe I am not understanding the OP?

[maven]

 

The issue is that some (actually the majority) say that if the ball is played on that it cannot be ruled dead.  Here is an example that occurred the other night.  Bases are loaded and there is a left handed hitter up to bat.  He hits the ball right down the line and the ball tails into this area.  The right fielder gives chase and fields the ball about 5 feet into this dead ball territory.  All the runners scored and BR ended up with a triple.  According to those that would not rule the ball dead, it is in play because the fielder played the ball and did not raise his hands.  I know that this is not the correct ruling and once we as umpires see the ball go into dead ball territory to rule accordingly.  The problem I am having is trying to convince everyone else to rule this away.

 

They have a basic misunderstanding of why we ask fielders to raise their hands. A fielder raising his hands signals us to check the status of the ball in case we do not already know it, and it marks a moment when we should be judging the ball dead for the purpose of placing runners (though batted ball awards are TOP).

 

A fair batted ball becomes dead immediately when it goes over or through or wedges in the field fence. 5-1-1-f-4 Nothing in rule 5 mentions a fielder's hands or arms making the ball dead: the position of the ball alone is sufficient to make the ball dead. If the covering umpire observes a fair batted ball leave the field of play, he should signal either a home run or call time and award 2 bases TOP ("ground rule double").

 

The purpose of having a fielder raise his hands is to alert the covering umpire to the fact that the ball has become dead by rule. Raising his hands does not make the ball dead, but rather prompts the umpire to come and inspect the situation in order to rule that, yes, in fact the ball has become dead by rule.

 

When a fielder fails to raise his hands and instead fields the ball, his doing so denies the umpire the opportunity to rule the ball dead. And until we rule it dead, it remains live. But if we see the ball leave the field, we must rule it dead, regardless of what the fielder does.

[noumpere]

 

 

The purpose of having a fielder raise his hands is to alert the covering umpire to the fact that the ball has become dead by rule. Raising his hands does not make the ball dead, but rather prompts the umpire to come and inspect the situation in order to rule that, yes, in fact the ball has become dead by rule.

 

Agreed with what Maven said and will add that by raising the hands the fielder is also conveying that he didn't reach down and push the ball under / past the fence to "hold" the batter to a double (or to hold R1 at third).

 

If you see it dead, it's dead.  but from the infield, you might not be able to tell if the ball is only dead by a few feet -- so here you need to go by the fielder and if he plays it assume that it never went dead.

[Jocko]

@maven - nice reiteration:)