Missed base appeal

[ERW27]

Talking with some fellow umpire buddies. Talking what if scenarios (luckily this has not happend to me yet, but it could tomorrow).

 

R1 at first. basehit to F9. R1 misses second base and continues on to third. The throw from F9 over throws F5 and goes into the dugout. Place the runners.

 

Second part of that if you award the runner home (2 bases TOT he gets third and home), can the team appeal the missed base at second. How would you handle that argument that you didn't award him second and third base on the overthrow.

 

 

[Replacematt]

Talking with some fellow umpire buddies. Talking what if scenarios (luckily this has not happend to me yet, but it could tomorrow).

 

R1 at first. basehit to F9. R1 misses second base and continues on to third. The throw from F9 over throws F5 and goes into the dugout. Place the runners.

 

Second part of that if you award the runner home (2 bases TOT he gets third and home), can the team appeal the missed base at second. How would you handle that argument that you didn't award him second and third base on the overthrow.

 

Where were the runners when the throw occurred?

[Mike Prince]

Short answer (IMO) is that the defense can appeal the miss of 2B regardless of what bases are awarded as long as they do it before the next pitch or play.  The award is not a play and does not erase the fact that the runner missed the base,

 

(of course I am assuming that the award is correct, which @Matt already questioned)

[ERW27]

R1 between second and third and BR between home and first.

[ERW27]

Are you awarding the base he missed.

 

either he gets home (third and home) with miss of second (what do you with an appeal of second)

 

or He gets third. (annouce he missed second so I'm giving him second and third).

[Mike Prince]

If he passed the base you assume he gained it absent an appeal by the defense (this is universal).  If he has passed 2B at the TOT, the proper award is home.  Don't do the defense's job for them and make things complicated for you.  The miss and the award are two completely separate things.

[Replacematt]

Awards for throws by an outfielder are two bases time of throw, so R1 is awarded home, and BR is awarded second.

 

Under FED, if R1 is on or past third when the ball becomes dead, he cannot fix his error. In OBR/NCAA, he cannot reach the next base from where he is when the ball becomes dead and still fix his error. If he's between second and third, he must fix it before reaching third. If he's between third and home, he must fix it before reaching home. If he fixes it, the award gets changed to third.

[BRUMP]

ONCE YOU PASS A BASE YOU HAVE ATTAINED IT PENDING A PROPER APPEAL

[ERW27]

Thank you. That answers my question.

[bluejerred]

R1 between second and third and BR between home and first.

 

5-2-2 (Fed):  When the ball becomes dead:  b. a runner may return to a base he left too soon on a caught fly ball or that was not touched during a live ball; (1) A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal (8-4-2q). 

 

In this case, especially if you know a runner missed a base, you would want to announce a general 2-base award for runners rather than pointing at a runner and directing them to a base for an award for two reasons:  If they DT makes an appeal and you call the runner out, you will get grief from the OT due to the fact you pointed at the runner and directed them to come home.  If you direct the OT to re-touch the base, the DT will be angry that you took an appeal away from them.  At least that's my thoughts.

[LRZ]

In OBR/NCAA, he cannot reach the next base from where he is when the ball becomes dead and still fix his error. If he's between second and third, he must fix it before reaching third. If he's between third and home, he must fix it before reaching home. If he fixes it, the award gets changed to third.

 

Matt, are you saying that if the runner missed second and is between third and home, he can go back to second and touch it? 

 

OBR 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when [snip]

APPROVED RULING: [snip] (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)—he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

 

Is there a citation for your last proposition, about changing the award? If in the MLB rule book, I have overlooked it. Is it in PBUC, MLBUM or another manual? I can understand the logic--that he hasn't legally acquired possession of second, having missed it--but it seems to conflict with the idea that passing a base is equivalent to having attained it.

[grayhawk]

 

R1 between second and third and BR between home and first.

 

5-2-2 (Fed):  When the ball becomes dead:  b. a runner may return to a base he left too soon on a caught fly ball or that was not touched during a live ball; (1) A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal (8-4-2q). 

 

In this case, especially if you know a runner missed a base, you would want to announce a general 2-base award for runners rather than pointing at a runner and directing them to a base for an award for two reasons:  If they DT makes an appeal and you call the runner out, you will get grief from the OT due to the fact you pointed at the runner and directed them to come home.  If you direct the OT to re-touch the base, the DT will be angry that you took an appeal away from them.  At least that's my thoughts.

 

 

This would not be proper.  You must provide a specific award: "You, score!" based on the conditions of the play.  It's our responsibility to make the correct award, and it's the runner's responsibility to run the bases legally.  It's also the defense's responsibility to appeal properly.

 

You can't merely say, "You, two bases from time of throw!"  Can't even imagine the look on the kid's face when he hears that.

[grayhawk]

 

In OBR/NCAA, he cannot reach the next base from where he is when the ball becomes dead and still fix his error. If he's between second and third, he must fix it before reaching third. If he's between third and home, he must fix it before reaching home. If he fixes it, the award gets changed to third.

 

Matt, are you saying that if the runner missed second and is between third and home, he can go back to second and touch it? 

 

OBR 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when [snip]

APPROVED RULING: [snip] (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)—he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

 

Is there a citation for your last proposition, about changing the award? If in the MLB rule book, I have overlooked it. Is it in PBUC, MLBUM or another manual? I can understand the logic--that he hasn't legally acquired possession of second, having missed it--but it seems to conflict with the idea that passing a base is equivalent to having attained it.

 

 

Under OBR, yes he can go back and correct his miss of second as long as he doesn't touch home AFTER the ball becomes dead.  Since he touched third when the ball was still in play, it has no bearing on his ability to return and correct his miss of second.

 

As to your second question, there is an interpretation from Wendelstedt that discusses revising a base award, but his example is specific to a tag up situation.  I would think it would apply to a missed base, such as that of the OP, but I am not clear on this point.

[Replacematt]

 

In OBR/NCAA, he cannot reach the next base from where he is when the ball becomes dead and still fix his error. If he's between second and third, he must fix it before reaching third. If he's between third and home, he must fix it before reaching home. If he fixes it, the award gets changed to third.

 

Matt, are you saying that if the runner missed second and is between third and home, he can go back to second and touch it? 

 

OBR 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when [snip]

APPROVED RULING: [snip] (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)—he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

 

Is there a citation for your last proposition, about changing the award? If in the MLB rule book, I have overlooked it. Is it in PBUC, MLBUM or another manual? I can understand the logic--that he hasn't legally acquired possession of second, having missed it--but it seems to conflict with the idea that passing a base is equivalent to having attained it.

 

 

MLBUM 5.12. The next base and base beyond refer to the runner's position when the ball is made dead.

[bluejerred]

 

 

R1 between second and third and BR between home and first.

 

5-2-2 (Fed):  When the ball becomes dead:  b. a runner may return to a base he left too soon on a caught fly ball or that was not touched during a live ball; (1) A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal (8-4-2q). 

 

In this case, especially if you know a runner missed a base, you would want to announce a general 2-base award for runners rather than pointing at a runner and directing them to a base for an award for two reasons:  If they DT makes an appeal and you call the runner out, you will get grief from the OT due to the fact you pointed at the runner and directed them to come home.  If you direct the OT to re-touch the base, the DT will be angry that you took an appeal away from them.  At least that's my thoughts.

 

 

This would not be proper.  You must provide a specific award: "You, score!" based on the conditions of the play.  It's our responsibility to make the correct award, and it's the runner's responsibility to run the bases legally.  It's also the defense's responsibility to appeal properly.

 

You can't merely say, "You, two bases from time of throw!"  Can't even imagine the look on the kid's face when he hears that.

 

 

Thanks grayhawk.  I will definitely make that adjustment.  I guess that would have the opportunity to cause more problems that it would solve.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

In OBR/NCAA, he cannot reach the next base from where he is when the ball becomes dead and still fix his error. If he's between second and third, he must fix it before reaching third. If he's between third and home, he must fix it before reaching home. If he fixes it, the award gets changed to third.

 

Matt, are you saying that if the runner missed second and is between third and home, he can go back to second and touch it? 

 

OBR 7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when [snip]

APPROVED RULING: [snip] (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)—he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

 

Is there a citation for your last proposition, about changing the award? If in the MLB rule book, I have overlooked it. Is it in PBUC, MLBUM or another manual? I can understand the logic--that he hasn't legally acquired possession of second, having missed it--but it seems to conflict with the idea that passing a base is equivalent to having attained it.

 

 

Under OBR, yes he can go back and correct his miss of second as long as he doesn't touch home AFTER the ball becomes dead.  Since he touched third when the ball was still in play, it has no bearing on his ability to return and correct his miss of second.

 

As to your second question, there is an interpretation from Wendelstedt that discusses revising a base award, but his example is specific to a tag up situation.  I would think it would apply to a missed base, such as that of the OP, but I am not clear on this point.

 

 

The Wendelstedt thing is in the MLBUM too.

 

So if you correct a miss of 2B you still get home anyhow. You just erase your liability.