Timing Play

[BillKen]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out.  Long fly ball hit to LF who makes a Top 10 Play diving catch for the 2nd out.  Runner on 3rd tags and scores easily.  Runner on 2nd goes halfway...freezes just a little too long trying to find the ball and the LF comes up gunning to the SS who elects to get him coming  back to 2nd for the force out due to him not tagging up...well after the runner on 3rd crossed home plate.

 

Do you score the run?

[UmpJM]

BillKen,

 

That is NOT a "force out".

 

The possibility of a force out was eliminated when the BR was retired on the legal  (and spectacular) catch by F7.

 

You have a retouch appeal which is ALWAYS a time play.

 

Score the run.

 

JM

[johnnyg08]

As JM stated it is an appeal play, not a force out.  Very common terminology issue.

[Thunderheads]

and .... just to add, proper verbiage is "time play" , ....not "timing" ....

[Mad Mike]

At the beginning of the OP, there is no way you are going to have a force out in this situation under any circumstances. With only 2nd and 3rd occupied, neither of these runners are "forced" to go anywhere.

 

However, this is a good question to raise--and get terminology correct. This is a good reminder for all of us--Rule 2 in NFHS is the definitions. If you understand definitions, it will pay dividends in dissecting a play and knowing what you have in front of you and how to rule on the play.

[Dash Riprock]

BillKen

 

A force is created when the batter becomes a runner and forces the runner on 1st base (who could force other runners) to the next base.  A runner is never forced going back to retouch a base (tag-up).  Since the batter/runner is the one doing the forcing, he is never forced himself;  therefore, it is impossible to have a force play at 1st base.  There is a separate rule addressing how the batter/runner can be put out at 1st base.  It is treated like a force (the fielder can tag either the runner or the base), but it is not a force.

 

Spread the word, and thanks for your question.

[noumpere]

Several examples of this type of play in most of the rules books.

[johnnyg08]

Mad Mike brings up a great point.  I think new umpires don't spend enough time reading Rule 2 (the definitions) It's probably the most important section in the entire book.

[BillKen]

I knew the rule...counted the run...and then an inning later the defensive coach asked me if I was sure the run counted since that was a "double play".  I assured him that it was right...and then explained it to his team's radio guys during the next half inning who were questioning it while they were calling the game.

 

I posted it here for discussion and to share the knowledge...it can be a tricky one to explain and most coaches do not understand.  If they do understand, they still play the Jedi Mind Tricks that they are taught in coaching school to try and justify it and tell you that you are wrong and accuse you of "giving their team the business"!!!

[johnnyg08]

Tell them to read the definition of a force out.

Once that batter runner is out there can no longer be a force out. Very simple.

[Larry in TN]

Mad Mike brings up a great point.  I think new umpires don't spend enough time reading Rule 2 (the definitions) It's probably the most important section in the entire book.

 

Very true!  I emphasize chapter 2.00 with the players I coach and m fellow coaches.  I think a lot of people see "definitions" and think the can just skip right by.

 

 

Tell them to read the definition of a force out.

Once that batter runner is out there can no longer be a force out. Very simple.

Here it is...

 

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the force situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpires judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.