B or C

[MidAmUmp]

so far we just have a possible 3rd to 2nd double play (which I've never seen, but I'm sure happens once in a long while) as a reason to start in C.  

 

I'm starting to think the only (main) reason we start in C is because when the situation went from R1 and R2 to bases loaded, nothing seemed different, so they just told us to stay in C.  I see why the Pac-12 guy said "in real-world umpiring" where you try to locate yourself where you'll most likely need to be based on the most common plays that will happen.

 

I can still see RHP's hands from deep B, so that's not much of a C advantage.  Honestly just a little surprised there don't seem to be many good reasons why C is taught, unless MidAmUmp is holding back what he revealed to Mike in that PM magna carta.  =)

I didn't give Mike much additional information than what has been discussed here...just my clinic's approach, since that's what he was asking.

 

I agree with what Troy has just stated (remind me to get my head examined).  The percentages dictate there is more potential for plays to occur on the 3rd base side of the infield.  While they shouldn't happen, teams do attempt pick offs and back picks to 3rd and 2nd.  They are much less likely to pick off or back pick to 1st.  I'd much rather call R3 out on a back pick from C than deal with the SH*#house mess forthcoming if you take the play from B.

 

There are 2 things you have to understand about 2-man - 1) Assume all ground balls hit on the infield are going to 1st base.  2) You have to HUSTLE.  So applying these 2 principles, there should be no reason besides pure laziness for not getting across to the far 1st base side of the working area for a play at 1st base even if you start off in C.

 

Are there certain advantages for starting in B with the bases loaded?  Perhaps.  Is there anything wrong with moving to B?  Technically, yes.  In reality, not really...as long as you have some good instincts and can provide legitimate reasons why you are doing it ("Because I saw Mr. Big Time Umpire do it" isn't one of them).

 

Do I, personally, always stay in C?  No.

 

We teach C because all the manuals prefer C.  The reason for this is we attract umpires at various levels of ability from all across the US and even an Aussie.  You can read story after story on this site about guys getting "dinged" on evaluations for very minor things.  The reality is there are little Hitlers all over the country who want to micro-manage their umpires and would much rather fill up 3 pages of what you're doing wrong, than tell you what you are doing right.  So when the guys from New Hampshire and California who attended our clinic last year go back home applying what we teach which goes against the black and white mechanics, they risk being penalized by their local association.  Additionally, we have several of our graduates go on to one of the umpire schools.  It is our responsibility to teach them what will be taught for those 5 weeks to give them a head start on the rest of the competition.  I think that's why we've had a pretty good record of our graduates being placed in professional baseball or advancing to the college level.

[umpstu]

 

so far we just have a possible 3rd to 2nd double play (which I've never seen, but I'm sure happens once in a long while) as a reason to start in C.  

 

I'm starting to think the only (main) reason we start in C is because when the situation went from R1 and R2 to bases loaded, nothing seemed different, so they just told us to stay in C.  I see why the Pac-12 guy said "in real-world umpiring" where you try to locate yourself where you'll most likely need to be based on the most common plays that will happen.

 

I can still see RHP's hands from deep B, so that's not much of a C advantage.  Honestly just a little surprised there don't seem to be many good reasons why C is taught, unless MidAmUmp is holding back what he revealed to Mike in that PM magna carta.  =)

I didn't give Mike much additional information than what has been discussed here...just my clinic's approach, since that's what he was asking.

 

I agree with what Troy has just stated (remind me to get my head examined).  The percentages dictate there is more potential for plays to occur on the 3rd base side of the infield.  While they shouldn't happen, teams do attempt pick offs and back picks to 3rd and 2nd.  They are much less likely to pick off or back pick to 1st.  I'd much rather call R3 out on a back pick from C than deal with the SH*#house mess forthcoming if you take the play from B.

 

There are 2 things you have to understand about 2-man - 1) Assume all ground balls hit on the infield are going to 1st base.  2) You have to HUSTLE.  So applying these 2 principles, there should be no reason besides pure laziness for not getting across to the far 1st base side of the working area for a play at 1st base even if you start off in C.

 

Are there certain advantages for starting in B with the bases loaded?  Perhaps.  Is there anything wrong with moving to B?  Technically, yes.  In reality, not really...as long as you have some good instincts and can provide legitimate reasons why you are doing it ("Because I saw Mr. Big Time Umpire do it" isn't one of them).

 

Do I, personally, always stay in C?  No.

 

We teach C because all the manuals prefer C.  The reason for this is we attract umpires at various levels of ability from all across the US and even an Aussie.  You can read story after story on this site about guys getting "dinged" on evaluations for very minor things.  The reality is there are little Hitlers all over the country who want to micro-manage their umpires and would much rather fill up 3 pages of what you're doing wrong, than tell you what you are doing right.  So when the guys from New Hampshire and California who attended our clinic last year go back home applying what we teach which goes against the black and white mechanics, they risk being penalized by their local association.  Additionally, we have several of our graduates go on to one of the umpire schools.  It is our responsibility to teach them what will be taught for those 5 weeks to give them a head start on the rest of the competition.  I think that's why we've had a pretty good record of our graduates being placed in professional baseball or advancing to the college level.

 

I am a big believer in the angle over distance theory. I will move in the direction of 1st base, but not at the expense of not coming set. Best thing is to be on your toes and expect the unexpected.

[dumbdumb]

Well, believe it or not, apparently the pro schools back in the day had the umpire in A straddle the line. Why? Because if a tracer down the line caused the umpire to totally freeze his only reference would be the fact if the ball hit him on the left foot/leg it was foul and on the right foot/leg fair. Same as in the nuts, left one foul, right one fair, right on the head down the middle was on the line and therefor fair.

 

Now, to the C position. In the old days apparently it was absolutely crucial that the BU stay ""ahead"" of the play and the order of importance on the bases was obviously 3rd, 2nd, 1st, with no exceptions. It was a total sin to miss a call at 3rd, even if the play at 3rd would only happen once in a blue moon. However, missing that blue moon call at third was akin to the unpardonable sin if done from any other position than C.

 

Everybody understood getting a better angle on a play counted big time, but that was only if you were on the side of the mound to the play, not on the opposite side of the mound with the play. They could not fathom that a better angle could produce the same call or maybe better from the opposite side of the mound in certain situations. Therefor the gripe, how can you call it from there?

So, mainly to stay ahead of runners for ""anything"" that could happen at 3rd or 2nd they wanted the umpire to start over on the 3rd base side of the mound or C position.

 

Now, there eventually became some talk about a C position exception every now and then. It could only occur with 2 outs (no tag up plays involved on hits to the outfield) and there were cases with 2 outs that maybe it was OK to move over to B, especially if no sliding tag situation was involved and therefor only force plays to the infield, especially the banger at 1B.

 

IMHO, when talking about less than 2 outs, it seems like the only situations happening in this post are with balls hit to the infield. Now, with less than 2 outs, if a ball is hit to the outfield, it would seem dropping down more towards the mound and getting a better view of the runners tagging up on anything from cf to rf would be wider and better from C rather than B. Also, many times with bases loaded they will go for the guy tagging at 2nd base going for 3rd (weak arm), if they feel they cannot get the guy at HP. Also, you are ahead of the runners already for base hits and those hit in the gap and any plays into 3rd.

 

Finally, at the AAA level (3 man), they decided that the 3BU did not have to stay ahead on every single play that could happen, and let the 3BU work the B or C position and leave the 1BU for the back end of the double play. Were there steals of 3rd? Sure, and they would be handled just like a 2 man, but there were many more double play attempts with many possible things happening that the umpire needed to stay fixed at 2nd and the 1BU could park for the back end of the double play. There are still situational plays where the umpire might want to stay ahead of the play at 3rd in a 3 man but they work a lot more in B and C than in the old days.

 

IMHO The check swing in the middle has the B or C umpire getting the exact same straight on view as the PU but in front of the catcher rather than behind. Seems like wanting a side view (different angle) even if A has to rule on a left hander in a 3 man, just like in a 2 man, was the thinking for the switch, although it may have gone back to the B or C now.

[BalkHawk]

Would you rather take a pickoff at first from C or a pickoff at third from B?

I don't feel the need to consider whether I'll be able to get out of the ball's way; if I'm asked about a check swing I'll give my honest opinion, and I have no problem getting a strike; and since I know the play will likely be to 1st I can start moving that way as soon as there's a ground ball to the infield.

why are they gonna pick off at 1st.... that is a stupid move... and not one 1st baseman in a free world is gonna hold on R1 with bases loaded.

Thank you Haid for exhausting my point.