CCA, R3 only

[noumpere]

Asked this question, but I don't have my CCA manual over here.

 

What is the correct CCA mechanic with R3 only, less than 2 outs routine fly to left that U3 does not need to go out on?  Reference?

 

Options seem to be:

 

1) U3 goes into foul to line up catch and tag up and has any throw back into third..  U1 pivots to take BR at first and second (if ball is dropped).  PU stays home. 

 

B) U3 turns and looks at the catch and has any throw back into third from about that point (moving as needed / allowed to get a look).  U1 pivots to take BR at first and second (if ball is dropped).  PU moves to line up tag-up and then covers home.

 

iii) U3 moves toward second with hand up to U1 and still watches the catch (the same as if this play happened with no runners on).  Takes BR at second if ball is dropped, reverses course to take throw back to third if the throw is there.  U1 moves to foul to watch BR touch first.  PU line up tag-up and has any play at home.

 

Other options welcomed.

[spiritump]

B

[noumpere]

B

you know that or its your opinion (which is still valuable)?  If you know it do you have a page number or something from CCA that I can pass on?

[grayhawk]

Just looked at my CCA manual and this situation is not covered.  However, my thoughts:

 

- Since U3 is not going out, my assumption is that this is a fly ball that is expected to be caught above the waist, and no chance of a F/F decision

- WIth the catch being expected, U3 should watch the tag up at third, the catch, and have all plays on the BR at third (if not caught)

- U1 should pivot and watch BR's touch at first and second if not caught) and all plays on BR at first and second

- PU should stay home for a possible play there on a caught fly ball and tag up by R3

 

I think PU taking the tag up at third is a reasonable alternative as long as it's pregamed and everyone knows this.

[noumpere]

Just looked at my CCA manual and this situation is not covered.  However, my thoughts:

 

- Since U3 is not going out, my assumption is that this is a fly ball that is expected to be caught above the waist, and no chance of a F/F decision

That's a correct assumption of this play.

 

I can make a case for and against all of the options above but Im glad to know (I guess) that it isn't covered specifically.

[grayhawk]

If this situation is not pregamed (things do get missed), then if I was PU I would be sure to start lining up the catch until I saw U3 doing the same.  It would probably come as instinct anyway since I would normally be doing this in both 1 man and 2 man games.

[Magic]

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd. 

[Haid D' Salaami]

Actually this is covered in your CCA 3man... U3 if he does not go out, will go into the infield, and take Br into 2nd, or take a throw back into 3rd....it is covered on pg 173-175

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd. 

yes your right, but U3 has to get into the infield..

[noumpere]

Actually this is covered in your CCA 3man... U3 if he does not go out, will go into the infield, and take Br into 2nd, or take a throw back into 3rd....it is covered on pg 173-175

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd. 

yes your right, but U3 has to get into the infield..

I don't see it on those pages.

 

173 is clean hit (didn't happen)

174 is fly to right (didn't happen)

175 is catch, U3 is out (which implies trouble).

 

Sorry for the late response; I'm finally back from assignment where I can get to my books, but I think I'll be out again is a couple of weeks.

[lawump]

 

Actually this is covered in your CCA 3man... U3 if he does not go out, will go into the infield, and take Br into 2nd, or take a throw back into 3rd....it is covered on pg 173-175

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd. 

yes your right, but U3 has to get into the infield..

I don't see it on those pages.

 

173 is clean hit (didn't happen)

174 is fly to right (didn't happen)

175 is catch, U3 is out (which implies trouble).

 

Sorry for the late response; I'm finally back from assignment where I can get to my books, but I think I'll be out again is a couple of weeks.

 

I don't have my manual in front of me...but, with R3 only (and a three-man umpire crew)...U3 is either:

 

(1)  Going out on the fly ball if it is hit in his area of responsibility and he reads it as a "trouble ball" OR

(2)  (If U3 does not go out) Busting in and taking the B/R into second base (or third base), while still having responsibility for a throw back into third base against R3 (PU has R3's tag at third base, however) OR

(3)  If U1 goes out, B/R will take B/R into second or third base (plus a throw back into third base against R3) BUT also has a throw back into first against the B/R. 

 

Remember, in a three-man crew the ONLY time U3 ever takes the tag-up at third base by R3 is when there are R2 AND R3 AND neither base umpire goes out on the fly ball.  With an R3 only, U3 NEVER has R3 tagging up.  U3 is either going out on the fly ball or busting in (as set forth above).

[noumpere]

Now we have votes for all three of my original options -- and different votes by some pretty respected umpires.  And frankly I think that any of them would work as long as the entire crew was on the same page (and that's probably true for many other mechanics as well).

 

So I guess my question now is why isn't it covered in the CCA manual? (And I know that no one here can really answer that.)

[zm1283]

 

 

Actually this is covered in your CCA 3man... U3 if he does not go out, will go into the infield, and take Br into 2nd, or take a throw back into 3rd....it is covered on pg 173-175

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd. 

yes your right, but U3 has to get into the infield..

I don't see it on those pages.

 

173 is clean hit (didn't happen)

174 is fly to right (didn't happen)

175 is catch, U3 is out (which implies trouble).

 

Sorry for the late response; I'm finally back from assignment where I can get to my books, but I think I'll be out again is a couple of weeks.

 

I don't have my manual in front of me...but, with R3 only (and a three-man umpire crew)...U3 is either:

 

(1)  Going out on the fly ball if it is hit in his area of responsibility and he reads it as a "trouble ball" OR

(2)  (If U3 does not go out) Busting in and taking the B/R into second base (or third base), while still having responsibility for a throw back into third base against R3 (PU has R3's tag at third base, however) OR

(3)  If U1 goes out, B/R will take B/R into second or third base (plus a throw back into third base against R3) BUT also has a throw back into first against the B/R. 

 

Remember, in a three-man crew the ONLY time U3 ever takes the tag-up at third base by R3 is when there are R2 AND R3 AND neither base umpire goes out on the fly ball.  With an R3 only, U3 NEVER has R3 tagging up.  U3 is either going out on the fly ball or busting in (as set forth above).

 

 

This is correct.  

[Bubba19]

Actually this is covered in your CCA 3man... U3 if he does not go out, will go into the infield, and take Br into 2nd, or take a throw back into 3rd....it is covered on pg 173-175

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd.

yes your right, but U3 has to get into the infield..

I don't see it on those pages.

 

173 is clean hit (didn't happen)

174 is fly to right (didn't happen)

175 is catch, U3 is out (which implies trouble).

 

Sorry for the late response; I'm finally back from assignment where I can get to my books, but I think I'll be out again is a couple of weeks.

I don't have my manual in front of me...but, with R3 only (and a three-man umpire crew)...U3 is either:

 

(1)  Going out on the fly ball if it is hit in his area of responsibility and he reads it as a "trouble ball" OR

(2)  (If U3 does not go out) Busting in and taking the B/R into second base (or third base), while still having responsibility for a throw back into third base against R3 (PU has R3's tag at third base, however) OR

(3)  If U1 goes out, B/R will take B/R into second or third base (plus a throw back into third base against R3) BUT also has a throw back into first against the B/R. 

 

Remember, in a three-man crew the ONLY time U3 ever takes the tag-up at third base by R3 is when there are R2 AND R3 AND neither base umpire goes out on the fly ball.  With an R3 only, U3 NEVER has R3 tagging up.  U3 is either going out on the fly ball or busting in (as set forth above).

Actually this is covered in your CCA 3man... U3 if he does not go out, will go into the infield, and take Br into 2nd, or take a throw back into 3rd....it is covered on pg 173-175

PU has tag up at 3rd. If Ball is going to be caught then U3 would stay to rule on any play back into 3rd. If ball is a clean hit then U3 would break for 2nd. He would have BR runner into 2nd and if he advances to 3rd.

yes your right, but U3 has to get into the infield..

I don't see it on those pages.

 

173 is clean hit (didn't happen)

174 is fly to right (didn't happen)

175 is catch, U3 is out (which implies trouble).

 

Sorry for the late response; I'm finally back from assignment where I can get to my books, but I think I'll be out again is a couple of weeks.

I don't have my manual in front of me...but, with R3 only (and a three-man umpire crew)...U3 is either:

 

(1)  Going out on the fly ball if it is hit in his area of responsibility and he reads it as a "trouble ball" OR

(2)  (If U3 does not go out) Busting in and taking the B/R into second base (or third base), while still having responsibility for a throw back into third base against R3 (PU has R3's tag at third base, however) OR

(3)  If U1 goes out, B/R will take B/R into second or third base (plus a throw back into third base against R3) BUT also has a throw back into first against the B/R. 

 

Remember, in a three-man crew the ONLY time U3 ever takes the tag-up at third base by R3 is when there are R2 AND R3 AND neither base umpire goes out on the fly ball.  With an R3 only, U3 NEVER has R3 tagging up.  U3 is either going out on the fly ball or busting in (as set forth above).

This 100% accurate.

However, to throw a wrench into things, there is rumor that the CCA is going to make a change and give the tag-up at third with a runner at 3rd base only to U3. Hopefully they decide against this as there will be situations where U3 moves outside to line up the tag at 3rd and U1 goes out on a no-catch; leaving no one in position to cover the play at 2nd on the BR!

[zm1283]

 

This 100% accurate.

However, to throw a wrench into things, there is rumor that the CCA is going to make a change and give the tag-up at third with a runner at 3rd base only to U3. Hopefully they decide against this as there will be situations where U3 moves outside to line up the tag at 3rd and U1 goes out on a no-catch; leaving no one in position to cover the play at 2nd on the BR!

 

 

If they change to that mechanic and U1 goes out with R3 only, then U3 would come inside to take everything on the bases and the PU would take the tag up at third.  It takes some adjusting and you have to read the play, but it is doable.  

 

The only issue is if U1 goes out and even if U3 comes inside, it's tough to get in position for plays back into first on the BR, but that's the same way as it is now, so nothing really changes in that regard.

[Bubba19]

This 100% accurate.

However, to throw a wrench into things, there is rumor that the CCA is going to make a change and give the tag-up at third with a runner at 3rd base only to U3. Hopefully they decide against this as there will be situations where U3 moves outside to line up the tag at 3rd and U1 goes out on a no-catch; leaving no one in position to cover the play at 2nd on the BR!

 

If they change to that mechanic and U1 goes out with R3 only, then U3 would come inside to take everything on the bases and the PU would take the tag up at third.  It takes some adjusting and you have to read the play, but it is doable.  

 

The only issue is if U1 goes out and even if U3 comes inside, it's tough to get in position for plays back into first on the BR, but that's the samie way as it is now, so nothing really changes in that regard.

It's doable for sure. Didn't mean to imply it wasn't. Could have been more articulate in that; if U1 goes out late and U3 doesn't recognise it, there could be some issues!