First one in several years

[umpire_scott]

I honestly can't remember the last ejection I had.  It may have been as many as 6 or 7 years ago, but it happened today.  Ironically a part of me actually regretted making the call, even though I'm certain that I got it right.  R1, outs don't matter.  R1 attempts steal of second.  Throw is there in plenty of time but F4 doesn't lay the glove on the ground and let R1 slide into it.  Instead he leaves it about 2 feet above the ground, and then when it's not slid into he reaches forward and tags him on the thigh.  To everyone without my vantage point it looked like an easy out.  I've seen many times on this play in MLB where they just ring him up even thought the replay shows the tag was missed or late.  So in retrospect I kind of wish I would have just called him out.

 

When I made the safe call I immediately motioned that the tag was up on the thigh.  DC calls time and comes out to "talk" to me.  The first words out of his mouth was "that's horseSH*#", I actually let him get away with this (it was an 18U game, anything below and I think I would have dumped him right there), and explained that the tag was made up high on his thigh after the foot got to the bag.  He replied with "that's horseSH*#, the ball beat him by a mile".  I said "coach you're gone" and pointed to him and then the gate.  He responded with another "that's horseSH*#, why are you ejecting me?".  I told him because I'm not going to allow him to swear at me.  He said he wasn't swearing "at me".  I said "coach you need to leave the field now, let's play baseball".

 

So how did I handle it?  And what are your thoughts on then "neighborhood tag"?

[mjr_2013]

I'd say it's probably quick, but it is a HTBT situation.

 

Only you know the level of ball you were doing here... If this is top notch U18 ball, where these players play college ball during the school year, then I'm not tossing for a "That's horseSH*#."

 

If this is 18U little league, where the players suck and don't give a crap and the league stresses the importance of sportsmanship and holds coaches to a very strict threshold, which is possible given the long lapse of time between ejections, I may be able to reason an ejection for just saying horseSH*#, depending on the volume and tone...

 

But, more than likely, you were quick. Learn and move on. I'd much rather eject and regret doing so than not eject and have it come back to bite me.

[umpire_scott]

Not ejecting for "that's horseSH*#." 

 

Not even flinching at it.

 

And no, he is not swearing at you. Swearing at you would be saying "you're horseSH*#"

 

The more a ball beats a runner to the base by, when you call the guy safe, the more pressure is on the manager to come out to 'argue', regardless of if your call is right or wrong.

 

Respectfully, your snap was quick here.

 

 

Thank you for the response.  I admit that I'm having trouble deciding what is grounds for an ejection and what is not.  I know that saying something personal is an automatic.  But here I just felt that the second "that's horseSH*#" after I told him exactly what I saw warranted the ejection.

[umpire_scott]

I'd say it's probably quick, but it is a HTBT situation.

 

Only you know the level of ball you were doing here... If this is top notch U18 ball, where these players play college ball during the school year, then I'm not tossing for a "That's horseSH*#."

 

If this is 18U little league, where the players suck and don't give a crap and the league stresses the importance of sportsmanship and holds coaches to a very strict threshold, which is possible given the long lapse of time between ejections, I may be able to reason an ejection for just saying horseSH*#, depending on the volume and tone...

 

But, more than likely, you were quick. Learn and move on. I'd much rather eject and regret doing so than not eject and have it come back to bite me.

 

To answer your question I believe all the kids were in high school.  It was an 18U travel ball tournament.  The volume was very loud both times.  The first time it was yelled from the third base line when I was near second base after making the call.

[mjr_2013]

 

I'd say it's probably quick, but it is a HTBT situation.

 

Only you know the level of ball you were doing here... If this is top notch U18 ball, where these players play college ball during the school year, then I'm not tossing for a "That's horseSH*#."

 

If this is 18U little league, where the players suck and don't give a crap and the league stresses the importance of sportsmanship and holds coaches to a very strict threshold, which is possible given the long lapse of time between ejections, I may be able to reason an ejection for just saying horseSH*#, depending on the volume and tone...

 

But, more than likely, you were quick. Learn and move on. I'd much rather eject and regret doing so than not eject and have it come back to bite me.

 

To answer your question I believe all the kids were in high school.  It was an 18U travel ball tournament.  The volume was very loud both times.  The first time it was yelled from the third base line when I was near second base after making the call.

 

 

Normally, I would say travel ball would mean it's too quick... BUT, what I bolded changes things significantly. This is no longer a discussion between men, that is HIM showing you up... And if he does it a second time, showing you up, when you are willing to make a conversation with him, then he is gone... But it's not for saying "That's horseSH*#", it's for attempting to show you up in front of the players and coaches and fans.

 

I'd suggest reading more ejection stories from UE. I bet you'll learn a lot and develop your own sense for what is EJ worthy and what isn't. You might even be surprised to see that some of the crap you let coaches get away with in the past was probably worth an ejection.

[GoodOldGus]

It seems like I have had 3 or 4 of this type of play in every game I've done this year, throughout all levels.  Do coaches not teach "tag at the bag" anymore?  Good gracious.....put the damn glove down by the base and let the runner slide into it.....especially if the throw beats the runner by "a mile". 

[Mike Prince]

Scott, you need to get all of the information in your original posts.  Always seems like you add more information in later to prove a point or defend yourself.

 

My initial reaction to the OP - not a very good EJ.  Once you mention the yelling across the field with profanity it changes that conclusion.

[umpire_scott]

Scott, you need to get all of the information in your original posts.  Always seems like you add more information in later to prove a point or defend yourself.

 

My initial reaction to the OP - not a very good EJ.  Once you mention the yelling across the field with profanity it changes that conclusion.

 

I wasn't defending my point as much as I was clarifying. I thought profanity twice like that was pretty automatic, so I didn't think about including where he was or how loud in my initial post.  When mjr_2013 said he might eject depending on "volume and tone" so I was clarifying for him.

[blue23ll]

I really don't like yelling across the field or loud volume whining from the coaches box. It really tends to make the game go downhill fast. Under their breath utterances I will allow, but publicly visible and audible ones get very little leash from me. 

[umpire_scott]

I didn't really think of it, but I probably would have reacted differently had he said it in conversation with me.  If I explained my call and he said "come on Scott the ball beat him by a mile, that's horseSH*#, to call him safe on that".  I would have let that go.  So you guys are right that it was more about the volume, tone, and demeanor that created then ejection.  So I definitely should have included that in the initial post.

[NCAAump2]

Too quick IMO. I don't think he was trying to show you up. At that 18U level, some of those coaches are college coaches, which is a whole different animal. I agree with the advice Mike gave earlier...reading other ejection "stories" will give you a better sense for what is EJ worthy and, depending on the level, what a HC can get away with. Assistants are given very little rope.

[umpire_scott]

Too quick IMO. I don't think he was trying to show you up. At that 18U level, some of those coaches are college coaches, which is a whole different animal. I agree with the advice Mike gave earlier...reading other ejection "stories" will give you a better sense for what is EJ worthy and, depending on the level, what a HC can get away with. Assistants are given very little rope.

 

I think it's kind of difficult to determine intent.  Was he trying to show me up?  I haven't the foggiest idea because I'm not in his head.  What I do know is he was pissed about a call.  And when he came out to "discuss" the call he yelled "that's horseSH*#" from the third base line and everyone heard it.  I actually did not eject him for that.  I gave him a concise description of exactly what I saw.  And only I could have seen what I saw.  I was the only one in position.  And his response to my explanation was "that's horseSH*#"?  That sounds personal to me.  He is effectively saying I did not see what I just told him I saw.  Maybe it's just me, but I find that to be extremely disrespectful.

 

I understand those that think it was too quick.  As I stated I'm not sure if it was or wasn't because I'm not confident at this point at my ability to determine when to eject or not.  I know the obvious ones, but I'm not sure about the questionable ones.

 

But the sentiments of the board at least to this point are not helping much.  It seems like every time I don't eject and post about it most people say I should have and then give the advice of "eject early and eject less".  Then the one time I do eject, after a coach swears at me twice and I'm told by most people that it was too quick.  And I disagree with whoever said he did not "swear at me".  He most certainly did.  He was talking directly to me, both times that he swore.  And he was referencing my call both times.  He may not have called me a name, but he did swear at me.  Not swearing at me would have been yelling "that's bullSH*#" to no one in particular.

[BigUmp56]

I guess I don't know how much easier it could be, Scott. I can tell from your questions about balks and game management that you're on the cusp of being able to take the next step and be a really good umpire. But in order to do that you're going to have to figure out who to listen to and who to ignore. There is enough information in this thread that you should have a proper understanding about when profanity is acceptable and when it gets someone ejected.

"That's horseSH*#!" - Just you and manger hear it. Acceptable.

"You're horseSH*#!" - Doesn't matter who hears it. Easy ejection. Personal.

"That's horseSH*#!" - Everyone can hear it. Easy ejection. Personal; He's showing you up.

Tim.

[BigUmpire]

Bumper stickers:

• "Eject early to eject less"-Jeapugrad
•  
• " When in doubt, throw them out"-Bigumpire
•  
• "You will only regret the ejection you missed"-.mstaylor
  • “Keep running the malcontents until you have only happy, well behaved people around you.â€-Bigumpire
  •  

[NCAAump2]

Whether he was trying to show you up or not is one of the things you need to be able to decide. Saying "that's horseSH*#" may not be trying to show you up. Are you going to throw a coach out for saying "that's terrible?" Probably not, but he's essentially telling you the same thing, just with a nicer word. Like Tim said, if he uses "you" or "you're," it changes everything.

[bam]

I had the same play at home this year.  Ball beats runner by 3 steps.  Catcher never moves the glove below his belt.  Runner slides in under him and I've got "SAFE!  RUNNER"S UNDER THE TAG!"

 

In my situation, however, the coach very calmly (but incredulously) comes out and says "What was that?  The ball beat him by a mile". Me: "I know coach but your catcher never even attempted to tag the guy, Never moved his glove" Him: "Blue, he was out by 10 feet!"  Me: "No, the ball beat him by 10 feet, if your catcher made ANY attempt to tag the runner, he would have been out regardless of whether he actually got to the base first.  I realize that if he's going to be out, he's going to be out, but your catcher has to participate in the play."

 

Well, he still didn't like it, but we agreed to disagree.

 

Btw - his brother is on our board and is one of the best umpires I've ever seen.  He's about the calmest, most self-assured guy, and his brother is the same way, which is why there was no s%$tstorm and why everyone stayed in the game.  

[dumbdumb]

 

Bumper stickers:

• "Eject early to eject less"-Jeapugrad
•  
• " When in doubt, throw them out"-Bigumpire
•  
• "You will only regret the ejection you missed"-.mstaylor
  • “Keep running the malcontents until you have only happy, well behaved people around you.â€-Bigumpire
  •  

 

Nice.

 

And here is how a HOF umpire put it (in bold) along with a little excerpt about him.

 

For 22 years after he retired, he acted as a consultant to the National League. He was responsible for mentoring Bruce Froemming, John McSherry, Frank Pulli, Terry Tata, Paul Runge, Ed Montague, Jim Quick, Gerald Crawford, Eric Gregg, Joe West, Randy Marsh, Charlie Williams, Steve Rippley, Bob Davidson, Tom Hallion, Greg Bonin, Larry Poncino, Mike Winters, and Ed Rapuano. Though Barlick worked for the National League, he was responsible for getting the American League to hire Drew Coble. He told the American League, "He's too good an umpire to be in the minor leagues and we don't have room for him." Barlick often told his umpires,"Though it's very bad to eject a player when he shouldn't be ejected, it's far worse to keep someone in the game who should be ejected."

[BigUmpire]

 

 

Bumper stickers:

• "Eject early to eject less"-Jeapugrad
•  
• " When in doubt, throw them out"-Bigumpire
•  
• "You will only regret the ejection you missed"-.mstaylor
  • “Keep running the malcontents until you have only happy, well behaved people around you.â€-Bigumpire
  •  

 

Nice.

 

And here is how a HOF umpire put it (in bold) along with a little excerpt about him.

 

For 22 years after he retired, he acted as a consultant to the National League. He was responsible for mentoring Bruce Froemming, John McSherry, Frank Pulli, Terry Tata, Paul Runge, Ed Montague, Jim Quick, Gerald Crawford, Eric Gregg, Joe West, Randy Marsh, Charlie Williams, Steve Rippley, Bob Davidson, Tom Hallion, Greg Bonin, Larry Poncino, Mike Winters, and Ed Rapuano. Though Barlick worked for the National League, he was responsible for getting the American League to hire Drew Coble. He told the American League, "He's too good an umpire to be in the minor leagues and we don't have room for him." Barlick often told his umpires,"Though it's very bad to eject a player when he shouldn't be ejected, it's far worse to keep someone in the game who should be ejected."

 

New Bumper sticker.