LL - Improper Substitution

[grayhawk]

Worked a LL game on Friday evening that was part of a District "8/9 Superstars" tournament.  This tournament is run exactly like the other ages, except there is no advancement past the District championship game (no section, division, etc).

 

LL Tournament Rules apply.  Home team brought 10 players, so mandatory play is 6 consecutive defensive outs and one at-bat.  14 is the starter in the 9 hole.  In the 3rd inning, 7 subs in for 14.  14 comes back into the game in the 4th inning, but 7 is also still in the game.  This is noted by the PU and the scorekeeper, but they don't say anything.  When top 5 is about to start, the visiting manager goes to the PU and alerts them to the improper substitution.  At this point, the visiting team is winning 8-5.  They lodge a protest for improper substitution and the District Administrator is called.  After going through the facts, all of which the home manager admits to (he did not understand the substitution rule), the game is ended with visiting team the winner.

 

It didn't seem right to me at the time, but after reviewing the LL rule book, there is no specified penalty for improper substitution other than it is subject to protest.  Since all protests must be resolved before the next pitch, and games are not replayed from the point of the protest, I believe the DA was correct to end the game at that point.

 

Opinions?  Was this correct, or was something missed?

 

 

[SoCal Lurker]

As I recall LL rules (been a while since I read them to try to help a coach who didn't like to do those things . . . ), an improper sub is completely different from BOO, and the umpire IS supposed to stop it from happening.  So I believe the U should have prevented this. 

 

I'm completely lost to find a basis for the DA to essentially declare a forfeit -- that would seem to require a specific provision to justify. 

 

('m sure that Rich Ives or one of the other LL experts will be along with a better answer than this.)

[semper_fi_72]

Something was missed!!!!!

The PU and Scorekeeper should have told the Manager that he could not make the substitution.

We also are in District All Stars and if a Manager tries to make a improper substitution we tell them they can not do it.

When it is something improper as this, it is the Umpires and Scorekeepers job to not allow it to occur.

Same as them not allowing a F1 to throw more pitches then allowed.

 

As for the Manager not knowing the sub rule.

That is ridiculous.

It is no different then regular season play in that aspect.

 

This was totally preventable!!!!!!!!!!

[grayhawk]

This was not a situation where the manager tried to make an illegal substitution and it was allowed.  The manager didn't announce the sub - both kids just ended up in the game.  It was noticed sometime during the inning.

[semper_fi_72]

This was not a situation where the manager tried to make an illegal substitution and it was allowed.  The manager didn't announce the sub - both kids just ended up in the game.  It was noticed sometime during the inning.

Then that is a Horse of a Different color.

 

If I was the DA I wouldn't penalize the teams by calling a forfeit.

I would have ejected the Manager and let the kids play out the game.

[Jimurray]

This was not a situation where the manager tried to make an illegal substitution and it was allowed.  The manager didn't announce the sub - both kids just ended up in the game.  It was noticed sometime during the inning.

Improper substitution when not prevented right away is corrected with no penalty.

 

From the LL Tournament FAQ's:

 

 

14. All Divisions: In the third inning the defensive manager enters #35 into the game for #10. In the fifth inning the same manager re-enters #10 back into the game for #35. Then in the sixth inning the manager now wants to enter #35 into the game for #55 at second base. Can he legally do this?

A: This would be considered an improper substitution and cannot be allowed to happen. The umpires, scorekeepers, game officials all should not allow this to happen. Player #35 cannot re-enter in a different batting spot in the lineup, he/she is "tied" to his/her original spot in the order. Remember

that an improper substitution is basis for a protest, but will not result in a forfeit. The solution is to correct the situation, and play on. All actions by the substitute up to that point are legal. (Substitutions, Baseball page T-19. Softball, page T-17)

 

Edited to add: If the sub ended up on the mound you might have an ineligible pitcher which could be a forfeit.

[basejester]

 

As for the Manager not knowing the sub rule.

That is ridiculous.

It is no different then regular season play in that aspect.

Continuous batting order is mandatory in the regular season Minor Division, so the managers don't really substitute until the tournament.

[grayhawk]

 

This was not a situation where the manager tried to make an illegal substitution and it was allowed.  The manager didn't announce the sub - both kids just ended up in the game.  It was noticed sometime during the inning.

Improper substitution when not prevented right away is corrected with no penalty.

 

From the LL Tournament FAQ's:

 

 

14. All Divisions: In the third inning the defensive manager enters #35 into the game for #10. In the fifth inning the same manager re-enters #10 back into the game for #35. Then in the sixth inning the manager now wants to enter #35 into the game for #55 at second base. Can he legally do this?

A: This would be considered an improper substitution and cannot be allowed to happen. The umpires, scorekeepers, game officials all should not allow this to happen. Player #35 cannot re-enter in a different batting spot in the lineup, he/she is "tied" to his/her original spot in the order. Remember

that an improper substitution is basis for a protest, but will not result in a forfeit. The solution is to correct the situation, and play on. All actions by the substitute up to that point are legal. (Substitutions, Baseball page T-19. Softball, page T-17)

 

Edited to add: If the sub ended up on the mound you might have an ineligible pitcher which could be a forfeit.

 

 

Thanks Jim - no grey area on that one.  Fix it and move on.  It was bugging me because it just didn't seem like LL would make the team forfeit in that situation.  I sent this to the DA for future reference.  

[Jimurray]

 

 

This was not a situation where the manager tried to make an illegal substitution and it was allowed.  The manager didn't announce the sub - both kids just ended up in the game.  It was noticed sometime during the inning.

Improper substitution when not prevented right away is corrected with no penalty.

 

From the LL Tournament FAQ's:

 

 

14. All Divisions: In the third inning the defensive manager enters #35 into the game for #10. In the fifth inning the same manager re-enters #10 back into the game for #35. Then in the sixth inning the manager now wants to enter #35 into the game for #55 at second base. Can he legally do this?

A: This would be considered an improper substitution and cannot be allowed to happen. The umpires, scorekeepers, game officials all should not allow this to happen. Player #35 cannot re-enter in a different batting spot in the lineup, he/she is "tied" to his/her original spot in the order. Remember

that an improper substitution is basis for a protest, but will not result in a forfeit. The solution is to correct the situation, and play on. All actions by the substitute up to that point are legal. (Substitutions, Baseball page T-19. Softball, page T-17)

 

Edited to add: If the sub ended up on the mound you might have an ineligible pitcher which could be a forfeit.

 

 

Thanks Jim - no grey area on that one.  Fix it and move on.  It was bugging me because it just didn't seem like LL would make the team forfeit in that situation.  I sent this to the DA for future reference.  

 

If he is not already aware of the LL Tournament FAQ's at this point then good luck:http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/tournaments/2013TournamentFAQs.pdf

[kylejt]

You play CBO all year, then they drop "bat 9" on you. Most managers of that age group have no idea, thus the problems. I'd just put 7 on the bench, and play on.

[Rich Ives]

 

This was not a situation where the manager tried to make an illegal substitution and it was allowed.  The manager didn't announce the sub - both kids just ended up in the game.  It was noticed sometime during the inning.

Then that is a Horse of a Different color.

 

If I was the DA I wouldn't penalize the teams by calling a forfeit.

I would have ejected the Manager and let the kids play out the game.

 

 

If this is the official tournament the DA cannot call a forfeit - only the tournament committee in WP can call a forfeit.

[Rich Ives]

 

.

 

As for the Manager not knowing the sub rule.

That is ridiculous.

It is no different then regular season play in that aspect.

 

 

The regular season sub rule IS different.  Starters are NOT locked into a batting order slot in regular season  His sub has to meet MPR first, but then the starter can enter anywhere.

[Rich Ives]

 

 I believe the DA was correct to end the game at that point.

 

Opinions?  Was this correct, or was something missed?

 

 

The DA has ZERO authority to end a game.

[grayhawk]

Rich, as I said in the OP, this is a district only tournament because it's "8/9 Superstars" and is not run by LL International.  It's kind of like TOC in that regard, so the DA is the final authority to end a game.  However, we were playing LL Tournament Rules, so Jim's link to the FAQ was ideal to resolve this properly.

 

Also, since we were playing Tournament Rules, starters cannot re-enter in a different position in the batting order.  That's 3.03 which is superseded by rule T-10.

[mstaylor]

Leagues that do CBO all year and then have to substitute is always a problem. As umpires we have to hand hold them to keep them straight.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Jimurray]

Leagues that do CBO all year and then have to substitute is always a problem. As umpires we have to hand hold them to keep them straight.Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

Which is why my previous and current DA have a "mandatory" rules meeting for the tournament. Both attendees and non attendees have blown rules issues. Apparently we have a failure to communicate.

Edited to add: We even give out the unapproved cheat sheet.

[mstaylor]

I don't get anybody that has any baseball experience not understanding straight substitutions. To me, the regular season rules are more confusing. 

[kylejt]

Why on Earth would a DA require tournament rules, with batting 9, to a group of kids and coaches who don't play that way all season long? That makes not sense at all. Plus, for the most part, these are rookie coaches.

 

Now, I know it's not rocket science, but to forfeit games, and send kids home, is stupid. Plus, you'll end up with angry parents, who might just steer their kids to soccor next year.

 

Folks need to think of LL more like a business, where you want to retain your customers. Alienate them, and they goes elsewhere. Especially at this age group.

[Rich Ives]

Rich, as I said in the OP, this is a district only tournament because it's "8/9 Superstars" and is not run by LL International.  It's kind of like TOC in that regard, so the DA is the final authority to end a game.  However, we were playing LL Tournament Rules, so Jim's link to the FAQ was ideal to resolve this properly.

 

Also, since we were playing Tournament Rules, starters cannot re-enter in a different position in the batting order.  That's 3.03 which is superseded by rule T-10.

 

I know the sub rules are different - that's what I said.

[grayhawk]

 

Rich, as I said in the OP, this is a district only tournament because it's "8/9 Superstars" and is not run by LL International.  It's kind of like TOC in that regard, so the DA is the final authority to end a game.  However, we were playing LL Tournament Rules, so Jim's link to the FAQ was ideal to resolve this properly.

 

Also, since we were playing Tournament Rules, starters cannot re-enter in a different position in the batting order.  That's 3.03 which is superseded by rule T-10.

 

I know the sub rules are different - that's what I said.

 

 

I see now - I thought you were saying the opposite.

[grayhawk]

Why on Earth would a DA require tournament rules, with batting 9, to a group of kids and coaches who don't play that way all season long? That makes not sense at all. Plus, for the most part, these are rookie coaches.

 

Now, I know it's not rocket science, but to forfeit games, and send kids home, is stupid. Plus, you'll end up with angry parents, who might just steer their kids to soccor next year.

 

Folks need to think of LL more like a business, where you want to retain your customers. Alienate them, and they goes elsewhere. Especially at this age group.

 

Well, the 9/10, 10/11 and LL All Stars are no different.  All of them use CBO in the regular season and then bat 9 in the tournament.  She feels going to T rules for the 8/9 Superstars gives these managers a head start for when they manage all stars later on, when the stakes are higher.  The forfeit was incorrect, IMO, thanks to Jim's reference which I am communicating to her in an attempt to make sure it is handled properly in the future.

 

As far as the parents are concerned, I have to give them credit.  Not an angry one in the bunch (that was visible, anyway) and several complimented us after the game as we collected our payment (a hot dog and soda).

[Mike Prince]

Cal Ripken does the same thing - leaves the regular season up to the individual league to encourage participation but come all-stars/state tournament time you have to use subs.  Creates a lot of confusion for a lot of people.