Would you balk this?

[umpire_scott]

Scott, I don't have my rule book in front of me, but is that all 8.05(g) says? 

 

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

 

(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not

touching the pitcher’s plate;

[Mike Prince]

8.05(g) says:  "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate"

 

So the apparent hair we are splitting here is whether coming set is part of the natural pitching motion or part of the act of getting into a legal pitching position.

[umpire_scott]

 

Scott, I don't have my rule book in front of me, but is that all 8.05(g) says? 

 

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

 

(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not

touching the pitcher’s plate;

 

 

This is the same rule that FED modified to include "taking signs".

[umpire_scott]

8.05(g) says:  "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate"

 

So the apparent hair we are splitting here is whether coming set is part of the natural pitching motion or part of the act of getting into a legal pitching position.

 

Well is it legal to come to the plate already set?  I thought while going from the stretch you had to start with your hands separated?

[blue23ll]

He did have his hands separated, or he couldn't bring them together while he toed the rubber.  I don't recall having this many discussions over arcane types of balks in a very long time. Particularly those in youth rec ball, where you could probably call a balk on every other pitch if you really wanted to.

[umpire_scott]

He did have his hands separated, or he couldn't bring them together while he toed the rubber.  I don't recall having this many discussions over arcane types of balks in a very long time. Particularly those in youth rec ball, where you could probably call a balk on every other pitch if you really wanted to.

 

When his foot came in contact with the plate his hands were already together, because he started to bring them together while he was straddling.  

[Mike Prince]

 

8.05(g) says:  "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate"

 

So the apparent hair we are splitting here is whether coming set is part of the natural pitching motion or part of the act of getting into a legal pitching position.

 

Well is it legal to come to the plate already set?  I thought while going from the stretch you had to start with your hands separated?

 

 

According to 8.01(b) it's not illegal, it does not specifically address the act of engaging the plate, it just says he has to be engaged when he comes set.  Prior to taking the set position he has to have one hand by his side, but there is no rule support for the case you are trying to make for a balk here.

[umpire_scott]

 

 

8.05(g) says:  "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate"

 

So the apparent hair we are splitting here is whether coming set is part of the natural pitching motion or part of the act of getting into a legal pitching position.

 

Well is it legal to come to the plate already set?  I thought while going from the stretch you had to start with your hands separated?

 

 

According to 8.01(b) it's not illegal, it does not specifically address the act of engaging the plate, it just says he has to be engaged when he comes set.  Prior to taking the set position he has to have one hand by his side, but there is no rule support for the case you are trying to make for a balk here.

 

 

Can you come to the pitching rubber with your hands already together?  Yes or no?

[noumpere]

No you cant but its not a balk.

[JaxRolo]

8.05(g) says: "The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate" So the apparent hair we are splitting here is whether coming set is part of the natural pitching motion or part of the act of getting into a legal pitching position.

Well is it legal to come to the plate already set? I thought while going from the stretch you had to start with your hands separated? According to 8.01(b) it's not illegal, it does not specifically address the act of engaging the plate, it just says he has to be engaged when he comes set. Prior to taking the set position he has to have one hand by his side, but there is no rule support for the case you are trying to make for a balk here. Can you come to the pitching rubber with your hands already together? Yes or no? Sure as long as its only momentarily and you separate them

[umpire_scott]

No you cant but its not a balk.

 

So this is another one of those things that pitchers are not allowed to do but there is no penalty.  So the correct thing is to tell him to step back off and do it again, correctly?

 

In addition is "coming to a set" not something that is "naturally associated with his pitch".  I've always thought that it was.  If not then why do they have to come to a set "in one continuous motion"?  It seems like they have rules that seem to imply that "coming to a set" is part of the "natural pitching motion".

[umpire_scott]

Jax - What if it was not momentary and he did not separate them until he pitched?

[umpire_scott]

I'm totally confused at this point.  Based on what you guys seem to be telling me a pitcher could, while straddling the pitching plate, brings his hands together and come to what would be his normal set position, while not in contact with the pitching plate.  Then take his foot and move it in front of the pitching plate like it normally would be.  And then deliver the pitch.

[noumpere]

If anyone is saying that they are wrong.

 

My guess is that this happened at a younger age because no one at any of my levels has ever done it.

 

Id suggest just fixing it instead of balking it (even if it technically might be a balk and I dont think so) and I still stand by my recommendation not to demonstrate.

[Mike Prince]

I'm totally confused at this point.  Based on what you guys seem to be telling me a pitcher could, while straddling the pitching plate, brings his hands together and come to what would be his normal set position, while not in contact with the pitching plate.  Then take his foot and move it in front of the pitching plate like it normally would be.  And then deliver the pitch.

 

Your original situation has the pitcher bringing the hands together and engaging the rubber as simultaneous motions, now you are twisting this into two separate motions (which the responses do not suggest is legal).

[JaxRolo]

Jax - What if it was not momentary and he did not separate them until he pitched?

Then it's a balk. I believe the JE DVD says that you should always give a moment to F1 so he can adjust.

[umpire_scott]

 

I'm totally confused at this point.  Based on what you guys seem to be telling me a pitcher could, while straddling the pitching plate, brings his hands together and come to what would be his normal set position, while not in contact with the pitching plate.  Then take his foot and move it in front of the pitching plate like it normally would be.  And then deliver the pitch.

 

Your original situation has the pitcher bringing the hands together and engaging the rubber as simultaneous motions, now you are twisting this into two separate motions (which the responses do not suggest is legal).

 

 

So what is the wording of the rule that does not allow it when it is two separate motions?  All the explanations as to why it's not a balk seem to me to also exclude it being a balk as two separate motion.

[JaxRolo]

Best advice I can give you is to get the DVD and watch several times. I converted it to MP4 for my iPhone.

[maven]

Regarding "any motion associated with the pitch": remember the definition of the pitch, and when it starts. Any motion that starts the pitch through the delivery of the pitch — those are the motions F1 may not do while straddling or off the rubber. Those motions do not include coming set.

 

A different provision prohibits taking the rubber with the hands together. There is no penalty: kill it and tell F1, "don't do that."

[Jimurray]

Best advice I can give you is to get the DVD and watch several times. I converted it to MP4 for my iPhone.

Off topic. How did you do that?

[umpire_scott]

 

Jax - What if it was not momentary and he did not separate them until he pitched?

Then it's a balk. I believe the JE DVD says that you should always give a moment to F1 so he can adjust.

 

 

So Jax you seem to be in the minority here that thinks this is a balk.  What rule are they violating?  I always thought it was a balk as well.  

[umpire_scott]

Regarding "any motion associated with the pitch": remember the definition of the pitch, and when it starts. Any motion that starts the pitch through the delivery of the pitch — those are the motions F1 may not do while straddling or off the rubber. Those motions do not include coming set.

 

A different provision prohibits taking the rubber with the hands together. There is no penalty: kill it and tell F1, "don't do that."

 

In another thread it was pointed out that in FED they include "taking signs" as a being "associated with the pitch".  So in FED "taking signs off the rubber" is a balk. So it would appear that at least in FED they are trying to indicate that a pitcher that does things that he would normally do while in contact with the rubber, while he is off the rubber, it is considered an attempt to deceive and thus a balk.

[maven]

 

Best advice I can give you is to get the DVD and watch several times. I converted it to MP4 for my iPhone.

Off topic. How did you do that?

 

 

Try handbrake.

[Jimurray]

 

 

Best advice I can give you is to get the DVD and watch several times. I converted it to MP4 for my iPhone.

Off topic. How did you do that?

 

 

Try handbrake.

 

Doesn't the DVD have copy protection?

[JaxRolo]

Best advice I can give you is to get the DVD and watch several times. I converted it to MP4 for my iPhone.

Off topic. How did you do that? Try handbrake. Doesn't the DVD have copy protection? Yes but I'm an IT guy!