Taking signs off the rubber - balk

[umpire_scott]

What exactly does a pitcher have to do for you to ring him up for this?  Obviously they don't have to actually take a sign, because their is no way to know whether the catcher was even giving a sign or not.

[mtnump]

Work with your catcher and tell him not to give signs until the pitcher is on the rubber...Which rules set are you using?

[umpire_scott]

Work with your catcher and tell him not to give signs until the pitcher is on the rubber...Which rules set are you using?

 

It's USSSA, so it's modified OBR.  I don't think he was taking signs.  He was just straddling the rubber, but he looked in at his catcher as if he was taking signs and was bent over in the same way he would be when getting ready to deliver a pitch.  Then he would look over at the runner just like he would prior to a pitch.  All of his actions were identical to his immediate pre-pitch routine, except his foot was behind the rubber.  Then he would move his foot to the rubber.

[sdix00]

Not a balk.

Never a balk.

There are 15 balks and this isn't one of them.

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[Jocko]

Never ever ever ever never call this a balk. All rule sets.

[maven]

The penalty is: "Don't do that." Don't use it. Ignore signs unless someone gives you the bird.

 

Instead, deal with the quick pitch: prevent if you can, penalize if you must.

[umpire_scott]

I do find it interesting that they would mention it as not allowed and then not have a penalty attached to it.  That seems rather disorganized.  

 

In my situation it was not a quick pitch scenario.  After doing this he would come to the rubber and take his time.  The problem I saw with it was that he was simulating his normal pre-pitch routine, while not being on the rubber.  I thought that was another reason why signs from the catcher needed to be taken on the rubber.  Sometimes the pitching rubber is difficult to see, so I could see a runner thinking he was on the rubber because he bent over, peered into the catcher for a few seconds, then he paused, and looked over at the runner on first.  All of this was done in a very slow deliberate manner.  Had I not been looking at his feet I would have thought he was about to come set and then deliver the pitch.  Everything he did was identical to what he would do pre-pitch.

[Jocko]

Did he simulate a pitch? No. What he did was what is normally associated with his PRE pitching motion. Until he does something normally associated with his actual PITCHING motion, no foul.

[umpire_scott]

Did he simulate a pitch? No. What he did was what is normally associated with his PRE pitching motion. Until he does something normally associated with his actual PITCHING motion, no foul.

 

But you can't have it both ways.  We can't have the arbitrary "is he deceiving the runner" mentality and then also the defined "did he simulate a pitch".  It says you can't take signs off the rubber (he appeared to do this).  So rather than balk it I guess I'll just not allow it.  In this game they had an artificial mound so it was not really an issue.  But I've worked on many fields where the rubber gets covered in dirt and therefore it's difficult to see.  At one of those fields I could definitely see the runner thinking the pitcher was on the rubber and breaking for first on movement and then being thrown out.  Then what do I do when the coach complains that he was taking signs off the rubber?  I'd love to be a part of that conversation: 

 

Coach:  Hey he was taking signs off the rubber.  My runner thought he was engaged with the rubber.

Me:  Sorry coach.  I know he's not supposed to do it, but there is no penalty.  I'll tell him not to do it again.

Coach:  What about my runner.  Can he go back to first base?

Me:  Nope, nothing in the rules allow for that.

[grayhawk]

I've had spirited discussions with more than one USSSA TD on this subject after finding out that they think this is a balk.  I consider carrying my WUM (Wendelstedt Umpire Manual) in the car to every tournament now, just so I have the proper ammo:

 

WUM, page 114:  6.2.1 Restrictions with No Penalties

 

The pitcher may not take signs from the catcher without being in contact with the pitcher's plate [8.01], may not disengage the pitcher's plate after every sign [8.01 comment], may not engage the pitcher's plate with his hands together, and may not disengage the pitcher's plate without separating his hands, If any of these occur, the umpire should immediately call "time," and instruct the pitcher to correct his infraction.

 

umpire_scott, this is just one you need to stop arguing, because Harry Wendelstedt says it isn't a balk, and he's right.

[mstaylor]

It is nothing. I know what it looks like but it is nothing.

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[Mike Prince]

Don't go looking for balks, know what is and isn't a balk and they will find you.

[JaxRolo]

Not sure if anyone has said this but I'll say it: It is nothing!

[umpire_scott]

So I understand now that it is nothing.  So if it results in a runner being thrown out what would you tell the coach?  I guess if I see it and I immediately call time and correct it then I won't have the situation occur where it results in a pickoff.

 

Thanks, I've always thought that this was a balk because it says it's not allowed.

[carolinablue]

Ok. If he is just straddling the rubber, looking in at the catcher it's nothing but your concerned about what to tell a coach if his runner breaks on a movement of the pitcher from that position. IMO, any type of movement that would trigger a runner to break, unless he's just a knucklehead, would be something like a step towards home or something with the hands and in that case it would be a balk for simulating a pitching motion. However, if you don't see anything and the runner goes, I would just simply tell him it's not a balk and give him a short rope in arguing.

[JaxRolo]

It is nothing

[Mike Prince]

Did I hear someone say it's nothing?     

[umpcoachfather]

zip, zero, nada

[mstaylor]

Tell the coach his runner shouldn't be taking a lead without the pitcher off the rubber

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[maineump]

The runner should be watching the pivot foot. If that foot moves - he should be getting back. Bad baserunning if he doesn't pay attention.

Whatever the pitcher is doing when he is straddling - he still needs to get the pivot foot on to the rubber before pitching. If he lifts the foot to put it in front, runner should be getting back, then if there is a quick pitch, call it.

 

There are so many ways that catchers are giving signals these days, hard to tell when the 'real sign' is given.

[Jocko]

Scott, if this is your response in this situation, you've screwed yourself.

Coach: Hey he was taking signs off the rubber. My runner thought he was engaged with the rubber. Me: Sorry coach. I know he's not supposed to do it, but there is no penalty. I'll tell him not to do it again. Coach: What about my runner. Can he go back to first base? Me: Nope, nothing in the rules allow for that.

My response would either be nothing, or something along this line:

You runner was wrong.

[umpire_scott]

Yeah I know the conversation would not go that way.  I'm just saying that I think it puts umpires in a bad spot to say it's not allowed, but then not have a penalty for it when it can result in something negative for the other team.  I could see a coach persisting that pitchers are not allowed to take signs off the rubber (which is true), and that the pitcher did something illegal, resulting in his runner being picked off.  I understand that the rules don't say it's a balk.  But in my opinion logic says that the offensive team should not be subject to an out in this type of a situation.

 

Like I stated earlier the best way to make sure this doesn't happen is to call time immediately when I see the pitcher doing it, and tell him not to.

[ricka56]

What exactly does a pitcher have to do for you to ring him up for this?  Obviously they don't have to actually take a sign, because their is no way to know whether the catcher was even giving a sign or not.

You had the right idea in the OP. You don't know what's a sign and what isn't. This rule is ONLY in place for the quick pitch sitch. Deal with the quick pitch, and forget about where F1 was when he might/might not have taken a sign.

 

If coach complains, tell him he ain't gonna like it if you stop play everytime you think his F1 might be taking some sign when he's off the rubber. Coach to F1: "Throw a strike", Umpire:"Time, coach, don't be giving F1 signs when he's off the rubber, F1 was not on the rubber". Any one of those words MIGHT have been a sign.

 

As many have said, Just forget about this rule. Deal with any quick pitch sitch.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

What exactly does a pitcher have to do for you to ring him up for this?  Obviously they don't have to actually take a sign, because their is no way to know whether the catcher was even giving a sign or not.

You had the right idea in the OP. You don't know what's a sign and what isn't. This rule is ONLY in place for the quick pitch sitch. Deal with the quick pitch, and forget about where F1 was when he might/might not have taken a sign.

 

If coach complains, tell him he ain't gonna like it if you stop play everytime you think his F1 might be taking some sign when he's off the rubber. Coach to F1: "Throw a strike", Umpire:"Time, coach, don't be giving F1 signs when he's off the rubber, F1 was not on the rubber". Any one of those words MIGHT have been a sign.

 

As many have said, Just forget about this rule. Deal with any quick pitch sitch.

 

 

And to be persnickety, the rule actually says F1 must take signs from the rubber (which is for exactly the reasons ricka and others have stated); it doesn not say he cannot also take signs elsewhere. 

 

(This rule always gets me bitter, as a U pulled from thin air at a crucial point in a playoff game for my son a rule that if the pitcher takes a sign from his coach before pitching it is automatically a ball?!?  Changed strike 3 to a ball, that became a walk . . . *sigh*.  When in doubt, don't make it up!!)

[grayhawk]

 

 

What exactly does a pitcher have to do for you to ring him up for this?  Obviously they don't have to actually take a sign, because their is no way to know whether the catcher was even giving a sign or not.

You had the right idea in the OP. You don't know what's a sign and what isn't. This rule is ONLY in place for the quick pitch sitch. Deal with the quick pitch, and forget about where F1 was when he might/might not have taken a sign.

 

If coach complains, tell him he ain't gonna like it if you stop play everytime you think his F1 might be taking some sign when he's off the rubber. Coach to F1: "Throw a strike", Umpire:"Time, coach, don't be giving F1 signs when he's off the rubber, F1 was not on the rubber". Any one of those words MIGHT have been a sign.

 

As many have said, Just forget about this rule. Deal with any quick pitch sitch.

 

 

And to be persnickety, the rule actually says F1 must take signs from the rubber (which is for exactly the reasons ricka and others have stated); it doesn not say he cannot also take signs elsewhere. 

 

(This rule always gets me bitter, as a U pulled from thin air at a crucial point in a playoff game for my son a rule that if the pitcher takes a sign from his coach before pitching it is automatically a ball?!?  Changed strike 3 to a ball, that became a walk . . . *sigh*.  When in doubt, don't make it up!!)

 

 

Were protests allowed?  I would think there would have been some sort of procedure for a playoff game.