I must have missed something over the years

[renegadewolf]

3 umpire playoff game tonight I'm on first, no runners on. 1out. Batter hits a ball that bounces off the ground past the pitcher and is fielded by the second baseman. I move just inside fair territory to get my 90 degree placing myself 15 or so feet behind the bag. F3 is making a stretch to make sure he gets the ball before the runner gets there. When F3 caught the ball i could see a gap between his foot and the bag and he stepped away from the bag so as to get away from runner. Runner crosses the bag and I call safe, off the bag and of course the stuff hits the fan. Coach comes out and very nicely asks about the call, and I explain that F3 never had contact with the base therefor no out. He then tells me I can't be making calls like that can change the game like that, the game isn't about me. I told him sorry, but the last time I read the rule book F3 had to touch the base with control of the ball for an out, and I wasn't going to call him out simply because he didn't like the call. Something about putting a piece of plastic mounted on a piece of wood with a little piece of metal on it engraved with "champions" that makes people go batSH*# insane.... Honestly, should I be making the wrong call because no one likely would have argued about it or make the right call? I think I have made my position pretty clear, anyone else have any input?

[Replacematt]

I'm going to answer this pragmatically, since I can...what caused F3 to not have contact?

[renegadewolf]

He was stretched towards second with his left leg back towards the bag. His foot was pointed down towards the ground with his toes being the point of contact on the ground. The bottom of his foot was far enough away from the bag it was pretty easy to see the gap between his foot and the bag. If i were a betting person I would say he simply misjudged the position of his foot for being the cause of not having contact (seeing as we are being philosophical and all....) Is that what you are looking for or am i answering this wrong, I am trying to be helpful

[Jocko]

I've noticed ALOT of MLB F3s appear to pull away from the bag early. No doubt theyre practicing self preservation.

[renegadewolf]

I've noticed ALOT of MLB F3s appear to pull away from the bag early. No doubt theyre practicing self preservation.

True, god knows when you have a boy like Fielder or Cabrera barreling down the line you don't want to get in front of those mac trucks. In my case neither was I calling an MLB game (I did after all say no I wouldn't cause I'm not good enough in that other thread) nor was F3 at any point in contact with the base. I will concede that perhaps I was being too literal on this but in fairness when you can see a discernible gap at 15 feet away, you have to give me something better than that.

[Jocko]

I've noticed ALOT of MLB F3s appear to pull away from the bag early. No doubt theyre practicing self preservation.

True, god knows when you have a boy like Fielder or Cabrera barreling down the line you don't want to get in front of those mac trucks. In my case neither was I calling an MLB game (I did after all say no I wouldn't cause I'm not good enough in that other thread) nor was F3 at any point in contact with the base. I will concede that perhaps I was being too literal on this but in fairness when you can see a discernible gap at 15 feet away, you have to give me something better than that.

how close was the timing? Do you allow the "neighborhood" at 2b on a DP?

[renegadewolf]

I've noticed ALOT of MLB F3s appear to pull away from the bag early. No doubt theyre practicing self preservation.

True, god knows when you have a boy like Fielder or Cabrera barreling down the line you don't want to get in front of those mac trucks. In my case neither was I calling an MLB game (I did after all say no I wouldn't cause I'm not good enough in that other thread) nor was F3 at any point in contact with the base. I will concede that perhaps I was being too literal on this but in fairness when you can see a discernible gap at 15 feet away, you have to give me something better than that.

how close was the timing? Do you allow the "neighborhood" at 2b on a DP?

I've had job interviews less intensive than this..... I wouldn't call it a banger play but the BR wasn't touching first seconds after the fact either, about enough time for F3 to pull himself out of his stretch after the ball hit his glove. I've never called a level of ball that allowing the "neighborhood" would be appropriate. While I do call mens leagues that has higher level players in it, the best of them WERE semi-pro (as in are no longer playing at that level) and others have played ball at American universities/colleges, admittedly not too shabby for a guy closing out his 4th year as an umpire (I'm nothing if not ambitious and studious when it comes to this game) I don't believe the "hood" is appropriate for these levels. Further I am a self starting people person whos greatest flaw would be that i care too much about... oh crap.... right this isn't a job interview.... nevermind

[noumpere]

Its HTBT of course but if his heel was against the base as he started and he went just up on his toe to catch the ball and that coused the gap and he didnt actually pull his foot then Im probably getting the out.

[Jocko]

I'm not busting your balls. Just trying to get you to think about possibilities.

Some of the 12u teams I see are very very good. If F6 flips to F4 and F4 to F3 for the DP, as long as F4 was straddle, drug his foot, or came pretty close, I'm banging it. Now if F4 attempts to contact, misses, reattempts, misses again, probably no. He advertised that he missed the bag.

In your OP, I'm likely banging it. HTBT no doubt, and I'm not faulting the purity of the rule type call. You called what you saw. You saw the gap. Good job. All I'm saying is...next time will you make the same call? Yes or no doesn't matter, just part of your growing as an official.

You saw it, called it, and owned it. :clap:

That's all anyone can ask.

[BRUMP]

On a dp they have a little leeway. On a throw to F3 they have to be on the base or I'm not giving an out.

[Rich Ives]

Its HTBT of course but if his heel was against the base as he started and he went just up on his toe to catch the ball and that caused the gap and he didnt actually pull his foot then Im probably getting the out.

And a tongue lashing from the first base coach.

If on TV the replay will have you making a bad call.

[noumpere]

And a tongue lashing from the first base coach.

In the plays Im seeing in my head thats never happened.

[Dannytheman]

I think you made the right call for sure. You called what you saw, and confirmed you felt you had good position to make that call. Now as to the discussion with the RAT? I listen, then explain what I saw and that the play stands. Then I ask for him to return to the bench, turn and walk away. The next step is his.

[mstaylor]

If he pulls a second early to avoid being stepped on, let it go. If his stretchy pulled him away, whether the throw was good or not, call off the bag. His job is to know how far he can step out in his stretch and not come off. He just found his limit. Tell the coach his stretch pulled him off.... end of discussion.

[Rich Ives]

I think you made the right call for sure. You called what you saw, and confirmed you felt you had good position to make that call. Now as to the discussion with the RAT? I listen, then explain what I saw and that the play stands. Then I ask for him to return to the bench, turn and walk away. The next step is his.

Read the OP. He already said he saw the gap. noumpere said he'd call the out anyway. You advocating embellishing the story?

[Jocko]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

[Mr Umpire]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

First, you advocate allowing a coach to have more rope if you mess up. But, now, you say you are not allowing more rope for an obvious missed call. When an umpire admits he saw something different than what he called, it is a missed call. Even a judgment call.

I don't care if it is on TV or not. F3 was off the base and he saw it. Making a call for the defense when they messed the play up and came off the bag is just wrong. If he came off the bag, he came off the bag. The only way I allow F3 to come off is if the other team is attempting to step on his ankle or bump him. Then, self preservation kicks in and I will allow that. Safety first IMO. But, not if the play brings him off the base.

[Jocko]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

First, you advocate allowing a coach to have more rope if you mess up. But, now, you say you are not allowing more rope for an obvious missed call. When an umpire admits he saw something different than what he called, it is a missed call. Even a judgment call.

I don't care if it is on TV or not. F3 was off the base and he saw it. Making a call for the defense when they messed the play up and came off the bag is just wrong. If he came off the bag, he came off the bag. The only way I allow F3 to come off is if the other team is attempting to step on his ankle or bump him. Then, self preservation kicks in and I will allow that. Safety first IMO. But, not if the play brings him off the base.

my post was solely addressing what Rich said, not the OP. As far as making calls, call what you see. Absolutely. Just so happens that today I had this exact play happen. 14u, ball hit to F9. I bust ass inside anticipating the throw to F3. Sure enough. So F3 steps straightline with the baseline to catch the ball. At almost the same instant he caught it, he pulled off into foul ground to keep from getting spiked. I banged it. Timing was good. Throw was good. Catch was good.

Regarding more rope.... If I know I booted it, I will let him jaw longer, but not harder. ie, no tongue lashing.

I am in no way advocating calling for or against ANYONE. Call what you see. I was merely asking a budding umpire a question hoping to open his mind to future possibilities, and owning calls. If, upon reflection, you feel good about your call, you obviously made the right call.

[mstaylor]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

A. I'm with you, none of mine have been either.

2. Nobody should ever suffer a tongue lashing, but there is a difference between a coach coming out and screaming at you and arguing a call, even in some cases, judgement.

3. We will on occasion make a bad call, I certainly have. Again there is a difference between a missed call and a bad call.

IV. There are times when judgement is discussed, not going to change anything but a discussion.

[mbrown2097]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

On #4, if the coach comes out and asks "What do you have" or "what did you see" are you ejecting, answering, or ignoring?

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

First, you advocate allowing a coach to have more rope if you mess up. But, now, you say you are not allowing more rope for an obvious missed call. When an umpire admits he saw something different than what he called, it is a missed call. Even a judgment call.

I don't care if it is on TV or not. F3 was off the base and he saw it. Making a call for the defense when they messed the play up and came off the bag is just wrong. If he came off the bag, he came off the bag. The only way I allow F3 to come off is if the other team is attempting to step on his ankle or bump him. Then, self preservation kicks in and I will allow that. Safety first IMO. But, not if the play brings him off the base.

my post was solely addressing what Rich said, not the OP. As far as making calls, call what you see. Absolutely. Just so happens that today I had this exact play happen. 14u, ball hit to F9. I bust ass inside anticipating the throw to F3. Sure enough. So F3 steps straightline with the baseline to catch the ball. At almost the same instant he caught it, he pulled off into foul ground to keep from getting spiked. I banged it. Timing was good. Throw was good. Catch was good.

Regarding more rope.... If I know I booted it, I will let him jaw longer, but not harder. ie, no tongue lashing.

I am in no way advocating calling for or against ANYONE. Call what you see. I was merely asking a budding umpire a question hoping to open his mind to future possibilities, and owning calls. If, upon reflection, you feel good about your call, you obviously made the right call.

There is an obvious, philosophical difference between pulling the foot in a self-preservation move, and stretching off of the base while reaching for a throw. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the umpires here will give F3 the benefit of the self-preservation call. If F3's stride for the catch pulls him off the bag, I'm calling safe if he doesn't touch the bag ahead of the batter-runner.

[Jocko]

Rainman, several points....

A. None of my games have ever been on TV.

2. I do NOT take tongue lashings from anyone. Period..

3. No such thing as a "bad" call.

IV. On calls where judgement is involved, there is ZERO discussion. No way will I ever explain a play where a rule application isn't involved.

First, you advocate allowing a coach to have more rope if you mess up. But, now, you say you are not allowing more rope for an obvious missed call. When an umpire admits he saw something different than what he called, it is a missed call. Even a judgment call.

I don't care if it is on TV or not. F3 was off the base and he saw it. Making a call for the defense when they messed the play up and came off the bag is just wrong. If he came off the bag, he came off the bag. The only way I allow F3 to come off is if the other team is attempting to step on his ankle or bump him. Then, self preservation kicks in and I will allow that. Safety first IMO. But, not if the play brings him off the base.

my post was solely addressing what Rich said, not the OP. As far as making calls, call what you see. Absolutely. Just so happens that today I had this exact play happen. 14u, ball hit to F9. I bust ass inside anticipating the throw to F3. Sure enough. So F3 steps straightline with the baseline to catch the ball. At almost the same instant he caught it, he pulled off into foul ground to keep from getting spiked. I banged it. Timing was good. Throw was good. Catch was good.

Regarding more rope.... If I know I booted it, I will let him jaw longer, but not harder. ie, no tongue lashing.

I am in no way advocating calling for or against ANYONE. Call what you see. I was merely asking a budding umpire a question hoping to open his mind to future possibilities, and owning calls. If, upon reflection, you feel good about your call, you obviously made the right call.

There is an obvious, philosophical difference between pulling the foot in a self-preservation move, and stretching off of the base while reaching for a throw. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the umpires here will give F3 the benefit of the self-preservation call. If F3's stride for the catch pulls him off the bag, I'm calling safe if he doesn't touch the bag ahead of the batter-runner.

much akin to a drop vs intentional release