Is he out?

[umpire_scott]

Runner is stealing second. Throw comes in clearly ahead of the runner. SS reaches to apply the tag. Runner slides around the tag and attempt to reach the base with his left hand. His left hand is about 3 feet from the bag when he reaches out. He then scrambles back to the bag and gets in safe. Defensive team wants him called out for going out of the baseline to avoid a tag.

[umpcoachfather]

You need to state the rule set, you have about 87 different possibilities.

[semper_fi_72]

Runner is stealing second. Throw comes in clearly ahead of the runner. SS reaches to apply the tag. Runner slides around the tag and attempt to reach the base with his left hand. His left hand is about 3 feet from the bag when he reaches out. He then scrambles back to the bag and gets in safe. Defensive team wants him called out for going out of the baseline to avoid a tag.

Sounds like he left the basebline to me which would give him about a foot and half on each side of the SS.

But it is a HTBT sit.

[umpire_scott]

You need to state the rule set, you have about 87 different possibilities.

USSSA

[UmpJM]

You need to state the rule set, you have about 87 different possibilities.

umpcoachfather,

I'm having a little difficulty understanding why the rule set would make a difference for this sitch. Care to illuminate?

umpire_scott,

A bit of a HTBT.

If the runner deviated more that 3' either side from a direct line between where he was and the base after the defense initiated a tag attempt on him, then he would properly be called out for leaving his baseline to avoid a tag.

If he did not alter his path after the SS initiated his tag, I would be reluctant to call him out.

If he did alter his path AND his outstretched hand was 3' from the base, I'd be inclined to call him out.

JM

[umpire_scott]

You need to state the rule set, you have about 87 different possibilities.

umpcoachfather,

I'm having a little difficulty understanding why the rule set would make a difference for this sitch. Care to illuminate?

umpire_scott,

A bit of a HTBT.

If the runner deviated more that 3' either side from a direct line between where he was and the base after the defense initiated a tag attempt on him, then he would properly be called out for leaving his baseline to avoid a tag.

If he did not alter his path after the SS initiated his tag, I would be reluctant to call him out.

If he did alter his path AND his outstretched hand was 3' from the base, I'd be inclined to call him out.

JM

I did call him out. The OC asked for an explanation and I said he left the basepath to avoid the tag. I only indicated the "defensive team wanted him called out for leaving basepath" so that the call I made was not evident in the post. To me a rule of thumb I've always used is whether they can touch the base or not. The typical arm is about 2-3 feet long.

How do others call this? Obviously if the runner is running and not sliding then their posture is vertical so most body parts are the same relative distance from the basepath. But when sliding it's a little different. Most of their body could be much farther then 3 feet outside the path, but their inside hand could still be barely within that 3 feet area.

[semper_fi_72]

You need to state the rule set, you have about 87 different possibilities.

USSSA

USSSA is not a Rule Set.

It is a Baseball Organization that uses OBR for it's rules.

[umpcoachfather]

the rules and interps for sliding are vastly different in LL, HS, NCAA and OBR. Look them up I dont have the time. If I read your situation correctly and you were doing a LL game, he would be out for sliding head first.

[umpire_scott]

the rules and interps for sliding are vastly different in LL, HS, NCAA and OBR. Look them up I dont have the time. If I read your situation correctly and you were doing a LL game, he would be out for sliding head first.

I'm only interested in the "out of the baseline or not" part of this. It was not LL rules. It was a 13U tournament.

[RichMSN]

The runner is only responsible to "stay in his baseline" once the tag attempt is initiated. If the runner was already an arm length from the back of the base before then, then he could easily miss the base and not be out.

[umpire_scott]

The runner is only responsible to "stay in his baseline" once the tag attempt is initiated. If the runner was already an arm length from the back of the base before then, then he could easily miss the base and not be out.

No he was running straight for the base, then as he saw the throw coming in he slid around the tag to avoid it.

Obviously we don't have rulers out on the field. So what kind of though process or benchmarks would you use to make your call on the field?

[noumpere]

The fielders step and reach is a good guideline. But that said its not necessarily where he ends up. Relative to the striaght line between bases (lets assume for simplicity that he was on this line to start), the runner is going to be going at a diagonal to the line. So if he deviated from the shortstop say 3 feet in front of the base, he might have been only 1.5 feet outside the path when he went by the shortstop even if he ended up 3 feet to the side of the base once he got that far.

[umpcoachfather]

Looks like Utrip utilizes the same Slide rule as FED - I read it quiickly - Must slide or avoid - so all slides must be legal. Where he is is your judgement.

Whenever a tag play is evident, a runner must slide or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and / or catcher.

Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over the fielder and / or catcher is not interpreted as seeking to avoid contact.

Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties.

Rule 8.04.C Penalty: The runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpire’s discretion.

Rule 8.04.C Comment: When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner’s intent. If the umpire feels

that the contact was unintentional, then the runner should only be declared out. If the umpire

[RichMSN]

I would find it hard to know what path the runner is running since the throw is turning me into the play. I'd have to see the runner go *way* outside the base in order to call out of the baseline on a stolen base attempt. He'd really have to not be able to reach the base, I think, before I'd make that call.

[umpire_scott]

I would find it hard to know what path the runner is running since the throw is turning me into the play. I'd have to see the runner go *way* outside the base in order to call out of the baseline on a stolen base attempt. He'd really have to not be able to reach the base, I think, before I'd make that call.

He wasn't able to reach the base. He slid to the outside and was trying to reach the base. His was about 2-3 feet away from being able to touch the base, with his arm fully extended. He then was able to crawl to the base after his slide before the fielder tagged him. I banged him for leaving the base path to avoid a tag and the DC was not happy about it.

[scrounge]

I would find it hard to know what path the runner is running since the throw is turning me into the play. I'd have to see the runner go *way* outside the base in order to call out of the baseline on a stolen base attempt. He'd really have to not be able to reach the base, I think, before I'd make that call.

He wasn't able to reach the base. He slid to the outside and was trying to reach the base. His was about 2-3 feet away from being able to touch the base, with his arm fully extended. He then was able to crawl to the base after his slide before the fielder tagged him. I banged him for leaving the base path to avoid a tag and the DC was not happy about it.

With fully extended arms and he's still 2-3 feet away? Sounds like the runner is a good 5-6 feet away, not even all that close of a call.

[johnnyg08]

and I said he left the basepath to avoid the tag.

the basepath or his basepath?

Also, I'm assuming you mean OC, why would DC complain about an out?

[umpcoachfather]

The runner establishes his base path, if he slid and had to move to touch the bag they way you described either he left his path, the field moved when he was running or the bag moved when he was running. HTBT but probably out.

[umpire_scott]

Thanks guys. The consensus seems to be that I got the call right, which I was confident of when I made it. Unfortunately the call went against the same team that was victimized by two missed tags in their first game where the runner avoided the tag (one sliding, one running). In the sliding case the player was able to still grab the bag with his hands so I had nothing. On the running play he simply moved sideways and made himself small to avoid the tag. It just never goes well where you allow it twice and then not the third and ALL of them go against the same team. They don't see the differences in each individual situation.

[Replacematt]

If all of your calls go against the same team, it's because you're biased.

If they are split, it's because you're trying to keep it even.

[umpire_scott]

Right. Because as everyone knows umpires process all that scorekeeping and bitterness right before making every call.

[Jocko]

If all of your calls go against the same team, it's because you're biased.

If they are split, it's because you're trying to keep it even.

seriously? I don't tally the percentages, I just call what I see. THAT'S being unbiased. Sometimes it just seems that the close plays just tend to go a certain way. Doesn't mean I'm LEANING that way, it's just the way it plays out.

[Replacematt]

If all of your calls go against the same team, it's because you're biased.

If they are split, it's because you're trying to keep it even.

seriously? I don't tally the percentages, I just call what I see. THAT'S being unbiased. Sometimes it just seems that the close plays just tend to go a certain way. Doesn't mean I'm LEANING that way, it's just the way it plays out.

No, not seriously.

[johnnyg08]

If all of your calls go against the same team, it's because you're biased.

If they are split, it's because you're trying to keep it even.

Isn't that the truth.

[bam]

I always shoot for 75-25.