Foul or Out?

[BrianC14]

Alright, I'm trying not to be dense here; I really am. What's the difference between a Foul Ball and a Foul Pop Fly? In 2.00, I see Foul Ball and I see Foul Tip. Clearly, this is not - by definition - a Foul Tip. The only mention I see of a Foul Fly is in the definition of a Foul Ball and it doesn't really seem to be delineating it from a Foul Ball, per se.

I see a difference between hitting the backstop and being caught. Based on various rules, hitting something other than a defensive player (e.g. a wall, an umpire, an offensive player, the ground) makes a ball not "catchable". But hitting a defensive player seems to be the one exception. Why, in this case, would a ball be "uncatchable" only because it hit a defensive player?

You have to look beyond just the definitions section of the book. Take a look at the comment in 6.05(.

It's not just ANY defensive player - it's the catcher. It's a batted ball that hit something on the catcher other than his hand or mitt and then rebounded. Once it hit that other thing other than hand or mitt (in this case, it's his mask) then it's a foul ball (and yes, immediately dead), so it cannot become a legally caught ball. It's no different than if that same batted ball came back and hit the umpire. Foul ball.

[ukce1861]

Again, forgive my obtuseness... I think I agree with you, I’m just trying to get this 100% clear so if it happens, I can explain it…

It's not just ANY defensive player - it's the catcher.

Why does this matter?

It's a batted ball that hit something on the catcher other than his hand or mitt and then rebounded.

Got it. All this tells me is that it's not a foul tip.

Once it hit that other thing other than hand or mitt (in this case, it's his mask) then it's a foul ball (and yes, immediately dead), so it cannot become a legally caught ball.

Why? What makes it immediately dead? The fact that it can no longer be legally caught, right? What establishes this point?

It's no different than if that same batted ball came back and hit the umpire. Foul ball.

But see, if a ball hits an umpire it cannot be legally caught – that’s explicitly established in the rule. The only time I see that a ball cannot be legally caught after touching a defensive player (somewhere other than the hand or glove) is a third strike or foul tip. How do you extrapolate this to a foul ball?

I'm not trying to be argumentative - I'm just trying to wrap my brain around what should be a simple question...

[th3]

UKCE - i quoted the fed rule that states it quite simply

[ukce1861]

Nevermind... You were wrong Brian - the answer is in the definitions section...

Carolinablue, I didn't get your post at first, but rereading the Foul Tip definition, I get it now. "It is not a catch if it is a rebound..." Plain as day now... Sorry for the brain cramp.

[DirtyDawg]

Isn't the real reason for the foul tip, foul ball difference all have to take precedence around any base runners ability to steal a bag? Can a runner not steal second base on a foul tip due to the direct possibility of being put out by the catcher?

[1dumbquestion]

Isn't the real reason for the foul tip, foul ball difference all have to take precedence around any base runners ability to steal a bag? Can a runner not steal second base on a foul tip due to the direct possibility of being put out by the catcher?

a runner can most definetly steal second or any other base on a foul tip. not on a foul ball. 1

[BrianC14]

Nevermind... You were wrong Brian - the answer is in the definitions section...

And the horse you rode in on, bud.

[ukce1861]

And the horse you rode in on, bud.

The aggravating thing is I think if I'd had this in a game, I would've made the right call, but after reading through all this, I started to overthink it...

Thanks for setting me straight!:WTF

[carolinablue]

Going back to the OP, say the ball deflected off the catchers glove 1st, off the mask and is then caught by F1. From what I am reading, everyone is saying that in FED this is a foul tip but in OBR a foul ball.

Where are you getting that as far as OBR goes. The fed rule book does specifically say, if it is legally caught by any fielder, so that is plain as day and I see it. In OBR however, it only says if it is legally caught . It does not specify it has to be the catcher nor does it say it can be any fielder ? Just wondering in case I have to explain it someday.

[mstaylor]

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand. A foul tip can only be caught by the catcher.

2.00 Definitions The bolded section is mine.

[carolinablue]

:WTF How did I miss that ?

Thanks

[Mr Umpire]

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand. A foul tip can only be caught by the catcher.

2.00 Definitions The bolded section is mine.

Where is this? Is it in the newer OBR version? It isn't in the online one so I am asking since I don't have access to anything else now. The bolded part is not in the online one.

[ukce1861]

Where is this? Is it in the newer OBR version? It isn't in the online one so I am asking since I don't have access to anything else now. The bolded part is not in the online one.

You're right. I found this in LL, but not OBR which I got online.

[Big Red]

As far as the bolded part of Mike's post, go back to the post...he clearly states, "The bolded section is mine."

He's merely clarifying/emphasizing what the rule states...that ONLY a catcher can legally catch a foul tip.

In other words: KISS :smachhead:

[th3]

But where does it say that the catcher has to catch it in the rules? in obr?

[Mr Umpire]

As far as the bolded part of Mike's post, go back to the post...he clearly states, "The bolded section is mine."

He's merely clarifying/emphasizing what the rule states...that ONLY a catcher can legally catch a foul tip.

In other words: KISS

Again, no where do I read that F2 is the only one who can catch a foul tip. Only, that the tip has to hit F2's glove or hand first. After that, the rebound can be caught for a foul tip and there is no specification of who can catch the rebound.

Is there an interp to support that idea? B/c the rules don't seem to be in OBR unless that is an outdated version.

[noumpere]

But where does it say that the catcher has to catch it in the rules? in obr?

It might be in JR, Evans, PBUC or MLBUM.

I'm sure the original authors didn't understand that there would be a bunch of internet smitties trying to parse every f***in' word when they wrote the book.

It's the correct OBR interp that only a catcher can catch a foul tip.

Accept it or not.

[Mr Umpire]

It might be in JR, Evans, PBUC or MLBUM.

I'm sure the original authors didn't understand that there would be a bunch of internet smitties trying to parse every f***in' word when they wrote the book.

It's the correct OBR interp that only a catcher can catch a foul tip.

Accept it or not.

Without an official interp or rule to support, how do you know it is correct just b/c you call it that way?

With the lack of "only the catcher can catch a foul tip", there is no support to say F1 cannot catch a foul tip as long as it hits F2's glove or hand. Which is why I asked if there is an interp to support it?

NCAA specifically says "by the catcher". FED apparently allows any other fielder to. OBR makes no distinction at all of who can catch the ball. Since they don't(if the online version is up-to-date) and if there isn't an interp about it, why would one assume OBR doesn't allow F1 to catch a foul tip provided it hit F2's glove or hand first?

Point out where this says only the catcher can catch it.

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

[th3]

LL says by the catcher...

when i do the yankees, i'm allowing anyone to catch it

[DirtyDawg]

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s

hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

Taken directly from MLB's website.

The only way that a ball is a foul tip is if the ball is caught.

[Mr Umpire]

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s

hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

Taken directly from MLB's website.

The only way that a ball is a foul tip is if the ball is caught.

Caught by who after touching F2's glove or hand?

[DirtyDawg]

That I'd leave open to interpretation. I'd say that by my interpretation anyone can catch it, but let's be realists here. A catcher is taught to bring his glove towards himself to soften the blow, especially at that level. The only way a ball is going to get caught by anyone besides himself is if he's jabbing at the ball and pretty hard. It also says he can use his hand.....I highly doubt with today's pitchers we are going to se a catcher use his hand to try to catch a ball, unless he's looking for a free trip to the emergency room.

[Mr Umpire]

That I'd leave open to interpretation. I'd say that by my interpretation anyone can catch it, but let's be realists here. A catcher is taught to bring his glove towards himself to soften the blow, especially at that level. The only way a ball is going to get caught by anyone besides himself is if he's jabbing at the ball and pretty hard. It also says he can use his hand.....I highly doubt with today's pitchers we are going to se a catcher use his hand to try to catch a ball, unless he's looking for a free trip to the emergency room.

Once the bat hits the ball, there is no telling where the ball is going. A 80 mph fastball slightly changed in direction can tip F2's glove or hand(), hit his mask, and ricochet out to F1 pretty easily. That still qualifies as a foul tip by the batter in OBR without any interp or rule to say otherwise.

Unlikely, maybe but still a possibility. As my signature says, I am not accepting a "That's just the way it is". This is a case of no support to prove only F2 can catch a foul tip in OBR.

[DirtyDawg]

Once the bat hits the ball, there is no telling where the ball is going. A 80 mph fastball slightly changed in direction can tip F2's glove or hand(), hit his mask, and ricochet out to F1 pretty easily. That still qualifies as a foul tip by the batter in OBR without any interp or rule to say otherwise.

Unlikely, maybe but still a possibility. As my signature says, I am not accepting a "That's just the way it is". This is a case of no support to prove only F2 can catch a foul tip in OBR.

I agree completely on this, but like I said earlier, to me, the foul tip was invited for one primary reason....to allow the play to still be live if a runner steals second base, therefore allowing the defensence to have a shot at making a play on the runner. If the pitcher wants to try to catch the ball after it ricochet's off the catcher's mask in your situation, more power to him, but the result is still going to be the same if he does make the play.

[carolinablue]

:wave: So I'm not as crazy as I first expected. I was reading the def. online ( MLB.com ) and that's why I asked what I did earlier. Then Micheal replied with the quote and it said a catcher has to catch a foul tip and I was like WTF. So when I checked it again, I looked in the LL rulebook and it was there. I'm glad you guys noticed that.