Time limit games

[jjb]

We've had an umpire or two "shave the clock" on us, and they used pretty much the same thing Pete is saying: they don't work for us anymore. The rules, established by the League, say: "no new inning will start after 1:40". That's what it says: not 1:39:50, not 1:27:10. The teams pay for (at least) 1:40, we give them 1:40.

In case you're wondering why we use 1:40: we used to use 1:45 with a 2:00 DD. (Rec League) The DD caused a lot of problems, due to the Revert rule, to decide who wins. We use a runs for/against Tie Breaker for Playoffs, and the Revert Rule made a hash out of it. So, we tried a 1:40 last year, and it made our lives easier. The coaches like it as well.

[kylejt]

There's a clock on the game for a reason. No new inning AFTER xxx, means just that. If time hadn't expired when the third out is recorded, you play another inning. That's a pretty easy concept for most. 5 seconds, or 5 minutes, the defense just earned another shot at it more baseball.

The defense got the outs under the time limit. The bell hasn't rung. The kids came to play baseball.

Look, I'm just a local volunteer. LL doesn't have timed games, so it's a local rule issue. I also help write the local rules, so it's pretty clear what "no new inning" is. Maybe in your town the umpires can decide that it's "close enough", or waste time dusting off the plate for a full 60 seconds. Us, we go by the clock that the scorekeeper holds. If the kids hustle, and get the three outs before the bell rings, we go another. Me, I'm there for the kids, so if they earn it, who am I to deny them by skirting the rules, or stalling the game. IMO, that's awful.

p.s. if you use the "one more inning" after , say, 1:30 you take the stalling managers, and cheating umpires out of the mix.

p.p.s. If you're officiating a kids game, and you intentionally stall a game so you can go home early, why are you even out there? Why bother showing up in the first place, if you're going to pull something like that? Why not just ring a kid up on a pitch that bounces before the plate, while you're at it?

Edited March 23, 2010 by kylejt

[noumpere]

While I think we all agree that time limit games are an affront to baseball, they are a necessary evil at many lower levels. If you take a game with a time limit, then follow the effin rules. If there is 5 seconds left, then play the next inning. Maybe the team was hustling to get the next inning in and just made it. If you don't want to follow the rules then don't take the game.

I will agree that if the game is a blow out and both coaches agree by their actions to shorten it, that you don't need to play it. That's no different from many other non-timed games.

[PeteBooth]

There's a clock on the game for a reason. No new inning AFTER xxx, means just that. If time hadn't expired when the third out is recorded, you play another inning. That's a pretty easy concept for most. 5 seconds, or 5 minutes, the defense just earned another shot at it more baseball.

p.p.s. If you're officiating a kids game, and you intentionally stall a game so you can go home early, why are you even out there? Why bother showing up in the first place, if you're going to pull something like that? Why not just ring a kid up on a pitch that bounces before the plate, while you're at it

?

Kyle the aforementioned is the LL mentality.

I still can't believe that some think 5 seconds / 5 minutes equate to one another.

It takes longer then 5 seconds to change sides. Also, your anlogy Why not just ring a kid up on a pitch that bounces before the plate, while you're at it is simply absurd.

I am with Warren. In the examples we gave EACH team had an EQUAL number of at bats so how is that "cheating" the particpants.

Also, at the BEGINNING of the game BOTH teams KNOW that the game is timed and therefore, coaching strategies change. "small ball" comes into play etc.

You do not LIKE timed games and that's fine, HOWEVER there is a reason that games are timed, most notably tournaments where they do not have lights or there is a scarsity of fields. If there is a minute or LESS left = game over and that is NOT cheating it's called GOOD game mangement skills because there are games back to back to back.

Since you are talking about the kids what about the kids who have the last game of the day and they get to play ONLY 3 innings because you started an inning with only seconds remaining when you should have stopped the game and now the next games got backed up BIG TIME. What about them? Do not tell me they can pick up tomorrow because there is NO tomorrow in a tournament. In a tournament if all you got in was 3 innings then 3 innings it is and we play on.

Bottom line: There is a reason for Time limits and that reason was NOT to start a new inning with a minute or less remaining. Use COMMON sense.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

While I think we all agree that time limit games are an affront to baseball, they are a necessary evil at many lower levels. If you take a game with a time limit, then follow the effin rules. If there is 5 seconds left, then play the next inning.

Then why have time limits to begin with. This has NOTHING to do with following the effin rules.

I gave Kyle a good example

Tournament time - Field with no lights

1st game scheduled for 8AM

Next game 10:15 AM so on and so forth with the last game scheduled for 6:00 PM (which allows for some delays)

Game 1 - we are at the end of 6 with HT ahead 9-8 and there is 5 seconds left.

According to many - Play on

We start the top of seven and the VT takes the lead 12-9

Now HT needs to bat

This half inning could be 1/2/3 or it could be 1/2 hour or so.

Game 2 instead of starting at 10:15 now starts at 10:45 or later

Now everything is backed-up

The game that should have started at 6 PM now starts at 7 PM because of all the delays. How is that fair to the teams that have the last game of the day?

Just like administering the rules of baseball we need to KNOW the history / intent of the rule to properly enforce. Umpires in a timed game should NOT be expected to start a BRAND new inning with a minute or less remaining.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

We've had an umpire or two "shave the clock" on us, and they used pretty much the same thing Pete is saying: they don't work for us anymore. The rules, established by the League, say: "no new inning will start after 1:40". That's what it says: not 1:39:50, not 1:27:10. The teams pay for (at least) 1:40, we give them 1:40.

First things first IMO, dusting the plate off with only a minute or seconds remaining is NOT "shaving the clock"

You are correct the teams pay for 1:40 NOT 2 hours and 15 minutes or later. If you expected me to start an inning with a minute or less remaining and said we do not need your services - my answer - thank You I have plenty of work.

Also, you are forgetting one MAJOR factor the games will get backed-up BIG TIME and the teams that are waiting to play will start complaining.

hey to each his own. FWIW I have been umpiring timed games for a long time and I NEVER started a 1/2 inning with seconds remaining and NEVER heard a peep from anybody. As mentioned if we have 5 minutes left is one thing but 1 minute or less - Time to go

Pete Booth

[jjb]

Sorry, Pete: I respect your opinion, but I'm not buying it. I can't, in all concience, tell the coaches that we're playing a xxxx time limit, "unless I decide that we've played enough and then you're done". I imagine I've run as many tournaments as the next guy, and yes, sometimes you get jammed up: compost occurs. You deal with it at the TD level. But, what you don't do (IMHO) is cut Team A's game short so you can play Team B's game. I just don't think it's fair.

[kylejt]

Perhaps you're unclear on when a new inning starts. It's exactly when the third out is recorded. Not the first pitch, nor when a pitcher takes the mound. But right when the ball hits the mitt.

If there's time on the clock when that happens, you play another inning.

LL has not stance on this, as none of their rules at time into account.

I like timed games. They're their for a reason.

"If there is a minute or LESS left = game over ". What if it's 65 seconds? 85? Two minutes? You must have a limit somewhere? Is it written down, or a judgment call? Is it protestable?

Now, if you're keeping stopwatch, I guess you can cheat the kids out of another inning. But what if it were held independantly? If the scorekeeper says, right after the third out is recorded, "we have one minute left", would you actually end the game? Really?

Look, if you don't like the rule, fine. But don't break it just because you have the power to do so. Either that or find a way to change it. But it's no new inning can begin after two hours, and the inning starts, well, you should that.

[kylejt]

Game 1 - we are at the end of 6 with HT ahead 9-8 and there is 5 seconds left.

According to many - Play on

No, it's according to the letter of the rules. Don't like it? Fine. Find a way to change it. But don't bend it to suit your purpose.

[Umpire in Chief]

You have to use common sense when determining when to end the game. I'm not saying in every instance to cut the game off with moments to spare. The situation will dictate what to do.

I have a 5:30 & 8:00 weekday night rec game, or other similar situation where things will not compound on me, I'll start the new inning.

If I have the first 2-3 games where the day is packed, I will not start the new inning.

Like Pete, I've never had a single complaint. The complaints come when you get to the drop dead time. "But blue, we've got bases loaded with no outs and are only down by one! That's not fair!"

[jjb]

If you're at the Drop Dead and they complain, you've got the rule behind you. Period, Full Stop.

If, however, at the end of the 5th of a 6-5 game with the HT behind, the HC says 'How much time is left?" and you say "45 seconds, but we're quitting anyway. Sorry, you lose", how would you (as TD) rule on the protest?

[PeteBooth]

But, what you I just don't think it's fair

.

We can go on and on with this discussion so as they say to each his/her own, however, your statement don't do (IMHO) is cut Team A's game short so you can play Team B's game. could be a catch 22.

As stated what about team Z's game - the last game of the day and they get to play maybe 3-4 innings (darkness issue) because games were backed up. How is that fair? Since these teams only played 3/4 innings there is good chance they will NOT make it to the playoff round because THEIR game was cut short. That's the world of tournaments.

Life is NOT fair BUT you do the best you can with the parameters given. As been often quoted by many a knowledgeable umpire you umpire "with the book" not "by the book".

Also, let's get REAL. If we are down to a minute or so left umpires will not have to "shave the clock" to use another poster's expression. The winning coach will do that for us. There is no rule against him requesting TIME to talk to his F1 or changing F1 for that matter, or requesting TIME to change F2 which will "eat-up" the one minute or so left on the clock anyway. When he changes F1's the new F1 gets 8 warm-up tosses.

As long as each team gets an equal number of at bats then IMO the game is FAIR and no one is getting cheated.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

If, however, at the end of the 5th of a 6-5 game with the HT behind, the HC says 'How much time is left?" and you say "45 seconds, but we're quitting anyway. Sorry, you lose", how would you (as TD) rule on the protest

?

No umpire worth their "wait in salt" would say that to a coach. The answer - Skip we reached the time limit - End of story. NOTHING to protest.

I guess we come from different parts because no coach (no matter how competetive he/she was) ever said to me "Pete we have 30 seconds left let's go" They pretty much KNOW that we will NOT start an inning with a minute or less remaining and guess what it works the SAME for all teams.

Pete Booth

[kylejt]

The answer - Skip we reached the time limit - End of story.

So you just lie to them.

Got it. Can't argue with that.

Just an aside, just where do you draw the line when you look at your watch?

[noumpere]

Game 2 instead of starting at 10:15 now starts at 10:45 or later

Now everything is backed-up

Not your concern. The TD should allow more time between games, or the TD can say "we're changing the rule for this game."

This is not a rule where "intent of the rule" comes into play.

[jjb]

Look, a lot of us fulfill different positions in the baseball community: UIC, TD, "senior" umpire, and just "umpire on the field". I get what all Pete and Warren say: I know what it's like as a TD staring at the schedule and seeing that my 6:00 PM hasn't started and we're at 6:30 already. And I've been working the dish, mentally counting down, hoping the kid will hit a foul ball, and waste time on the clock, so we can move on. And I'm not the sort (I hope) to be an umpire who works "by the book".

But, for me I suppose, it comes down to this: when I walk onto the field to work a game, I have a function: to fairly, impartially enforce the rules of the game to the best of my ability. Not to worry about the 8:00 P.M. game, or the 6:30 P.M. game, THIS game. And (with absolutely no opinions, aspersions or preconceived notions about anybody else in the conversation), to unilaterally "bend" the rules and short-change two teams (call it what you will, that's what you're doing), I sincerely feel is dishonest. JMHO.

I'm glad we're having this conversation here. Elsewhere, this would have broken down long ago.

[PeteBooth]

I guarantee you, if you walk off the field one or two minutes early, even if its the bottom of the 6th and 11-2 for the home team, some bafoon from the visitors will report you

.

As Warren and I stated we have been doing this for a LONG time and I have NEVER had a problem ESPECIALLY with the score you posted 11-2.

As mentioned this OP boils down to each his / her own.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

I'm glad we're having this conversation here. Elsewhere, this would have broken down long ago

Then you say

And (with absolutely no opinions, aspersions or preconceived notions about anybody else in the conversation), to unilaterally "bend" the rules and short-change two teams (call it what you will, that's what you're doing), I sincerely feel is dishonest. JMHO.

You are "barking up the wrong tree"

It's NOT dishonest or bending the rules. EACH team received an equal number of at bats.

let me ask you something?

You are umpiring a game and in inning one you notice that F1 is going to his mouth while on the pitcher's plate and not wiping it off.

Do you

1. Enforce

OR

2. Call Time and tell F2 to tell F1 to make certain that after he goes to his mouth he wipes it off or as BU get F1's attention and tell him the 'deal"

Most umpires I KNOW would do preventative umpiring and NOT call this type of infraction UNLESS it's repeated.

According to you that's being dishonest and bending the rules.

hate to break it to you but it's called GOOD UMPIRING

As mentioned umpire "with the book" NOT by the book.

No one is short changing 2 teams. Short -changing would mean one team got 6 at bats and the other team only 5. In the examples Warren and I gave each team had an equal chance.

FWIW if you want posters to be cordial to you I STRONGLY recommend you stay away from calling people dishonest. Stick to the topic and make your viewpoints.

Ok time to move on

Pete Booth

[Umpire in Chief]

How many of you who are worried about a minute or so shaved off the back side know the second you started your game and adjust your ending time accordingly?

My bet not a one.

[moblue]

Well, you could look at it like this: in no other sport in the world that I am aware of would the game officials end the game with time still on the clock. Not in basketball, football, hockey, soccer, or anything else. Why should baseball be any different? Sure, parents complain sometimes about the game length, but I can't think of the kids ever complaining. That's who we are supposed to be out there for anyway. If people don't want to work with me because of that it doesn't hurt my feelings any. I am perfectly capable of working a game alone.

Addressing the tournament situation, if it is at a site without lights, I could understand it then, but anything over one minute and I'd be consulting the TD. Otherwise, the teams should unquestionably have the entire time limit. I have worked a tournament where I was on the field till around 12:45 am because we got behind even with rediculously short time limits. It didn't bother me one bit. I would have gone all night if there had been more games that needed to be played.

[moblue]

How many of you who are worried about a minute or so shaved off the back side know the second you started your game and adjust your ending time accordingly?

My bet not a one.

Actually, I started using the stopwatch feature on my watch this year instead of using a start time. I hated having to figure up the math in my head when coaches asked how much time was left and we had started at 6:04 or something odd like that. This made it much easier on me to quickly know if we were running out of time or not. When coaches ask me now "How much time is left?" I tell them "We're 'x' minutes in."

[jjb]

Moving on....

[kylejt]

How many of you who are worried about a minute or so shaved off the back side know the second you started your game and adjust your ending time accordingly?

My bet not a one.

We have the scorekeeper hold the time. If they say there's time on the clock when the third out is recorded, we go another inning. How much time is not a factor, nor should it be. So far this season we've started inning with 5 and 10 seconds left on the clock.

My questions still stands Pete and UIC: How much time are you willing to lie about, so that you can go home early? One minute? Two? Three? What's your cutoff, and why?

[PeteBooth]

My questions still stands Pete and UIC: How much time are you willing to lie about, so that you can go home early? One minute? Two? Three? What's your cutoff, and why

?

When you make statements such as Lie/ Go home early IMO you do not deserve a response so as previously mentioned for me time to move on.

FWIW: You are lucky that you are not at the official Forum or umpire.org where you would be blasted and eventually the thread closed.

Pete Booth

[Umpire in Chief]

The vast majority of times the clock does not come into play. Time expires in the inning and I kindly announce at that time this will be our last inning.

Game management goes alot into this as well. Using effective game management skills gets them more playing time than worring about a moment on the clock. If you just let the game happen around you and don't manage the game, that is when it will cause problems.

We have a great article on game managaement here.

Like many other topics we've reached an impasse, and I'm in no way trying to imply that this is the way thing's must be done for everybody. To each their own.

Thanks, to all for keeping this a positive thread!