Home run Double

[Umpire in Chief]

Okay I've become King of the 10 y/o games lately. Sunday the first inning of the game there are 2 outs nobody aboard and I have a kid belt one. I still have no idea whether it went out on the hop or not. It was a shot to deep left-center field. This part of the field was in the shade and the fence was a silver 4' chain link fence which gave me no help.

When the ball was hit I got up to the left side of the mound and watched it hit the ground. I have no clue if it was in or out. I read the fielders and with 10 year olds they were no help they really didn't charge the ball in the first place and they didn't raise their hands.

I had to make a call and I called it a double based on what I had I felt it probably bounced before the fence. As the runner is rounding 2nd I hold up my 2 fingers and announce "That's two!"

The offensive head coach is in the 3rd base box and tells his kid to keep running and he runs out onto the field to argue for the HR. I held up the stop sign and told him to stay right there. I go to my partner (a good second year ump) and ask if he had anything. He said he was watching the BR tag first so no help there. I go back to the coach. He begins his argument and I calmly listen. I tell him I believe the ball bounced over.

He tells me to ask the outfielders. I replied I've already asked my partner if he had anything, but he did not see because he was meeting his responsibilities of the runner. But I am not going to ask a player especially not a child. He stomps off with out saying a word. As he leaves I announce we have a ground rule double.

The kid starts to run out of the dugout back to second and the coach stops him and yells, "I'm not going to take the home run away from you because this umpire doesn't have a clue."

"Coach come over here we need to talk." I walk to the third base side of the mound to meet the coach. I tell him something like, 'Coach, this is my one and only attempt to keep you in the game. What you're doing now is showing me up and the majority of the time that is your express ticket home. Today I'm going to work with you because it's fall ball and it was a tough call and I understand you have to fight for your kids. But I made my call which I believe to be right and we're both going to have to live with it. Now I'm going to go back to the plate and put the ball back in play and I'm going to need a runner on second. If I put the ball in play and there is no runner on second I will immediately call time and declare the runner on second out.' (Don't ask me where I came up with that rule, I'm sort of thinking of abandonment, but who knows)

He calmly said, "You do what you have to do I'll do what I have to do."

I look at the coach, put the ball in play and then call time again and declare the runner out.

Go ahead and skewer me and tell me what you think about the situation.

FWIW- After the game the defensive coach told me his center fielder didn't know if it went out or not and the left fielder thinks it did.

[mstaylor]

I was with you until he said do what you have to do. At that point you have told that was your one attempt to keep him in the game, once he chooses not to let you, dump him. You have amitted it was a hard call and you did the best you could with it and chose his path. Once he is gone, ask his replacement if he would like to replace his runner. If he chooses no then call him out.

I have been in that boat and it is very difficult to tell. I had the same thing happen years ago and the coach wanted me to ask the outfielder. Of course, I said no so he yelled to his fielder. The outfielder said it sure did bounce over. I would have dumped him if I wasn't trying not to laugh at the look on his face. Classic.

[BrianC14]

I was with you until he said do what you have to do. At that point you have told that was your one attempt to keep him in the game, once he chooses not to let you, dump him. You have amitted it was a hard call and you did the best you could with it and chose his path. Once he is gone, ask his replacement if he would like to replace his runner. If he chooses no then call him out.

I have been in that boat and it is very difficult to tell. I had the same thing happen years ago and the coach wanted me to ask the outfielder. Of course, I said no so he yelled to his fielder. The outfielder said it sure did bounce over. I would have dumped him if I wasn't trying not to laugh at the look on his face. Classic.

Great bit giant mega-ditto to that, Mike.

The coach looked a gift horse in the mouth on that, Warren. You could have run him with a red hot poker and that would have been too good for him.

[therefump]

Warren, I've been in your position and gave coaches way to much rope. You correctly pointed out that it's fall ball and cut him some slack. I've actually heard that statement "You gotta do..." but you can't toss on that alone. You drew the line in the sand and he ultimately crossed it.

A footnote here: nothing personal but since I joined in the spring I've noticed that a lot of comments focus on "throwing 'em". I pointed this out during summer ball. Around here, if I ejected as much as recommended I would be blackballed from a lot of leagues.

Question: what's your percentage of ejections/# of games?

[jjb]

Warren, I hear you: you're working a Fall Ball game with 10-year old kids and part-time coaches. (At that age, we like to remove the title "Coach" and substitute the title "Shepherd" around here). As with most Leagues, Fall Ball coaches are generally Dads who are told 2 days before the season starts "if you don't coach, your son Timmy doesn't have a team". So, he goes out and does the best that he can. Most times, he does the Bad News Bears bit, sits back, and watches the kids play. Sometimes, he takes it more seriously, and tries to teach what he knows (which ain't much). And, sometimes, he goes into Gardenhire Mode, 'cause that's what he sees a Coach do on TV. And we have to deal with them all.

I see a lot of umpires in a lot of forums who answer any question, problem or difficulty in their games with an immediate "ah, Dump 'Em" response. and sometimes, I'm in complete agreement: I've dumped my share, and my Ejection Reports have been held up as Literary Works of Art. (I have even footnoted with Supreme Court Decisions). If somebody needs to go, trust me, I'll trash him in a heartbeat, and smile as he walks down the driveway. But, I have to tell you, it's not the only tool in my bag.

I work HS Ball as well as Rec League Ball, and I have to adjust my own fuse according to whom I'm talking. My Varsity Coaches know exactly where the line is, (and it's very short). They know where it is, I know where it is, and we get along just fine. (They behaved this year, and I had zero ejections, thank you). It's really easy.

Rec League Ball is different. The "coaches" are out there floundering around, doing what they think is best for their (i.e., their kid's) team. They screw up, and sometimes royally. Most times, they only screw their team: we watch them try and score from third on a passed ball with nobody out, shake our head, and move on.

And sometimes, their hearts get out in front of their heads, and they take their misfortunes out on you. That's where it gets tough. I'm trying to officiate the game, keep it fair and get the hell out of there. I could easily go to HS Mode, and, as I hear constantly, "Dump 'Em". And, yeah, they're out of my hair, and everybody on these forums would yell "Yay, Good Umpiring!"...

...and, know what happens? These "coaches/Dad's/knuckleheads-who-answered-the-phone-at-the-beginning-of-the-season" tell the League, "Hell, no, let Timmy play Soccer" at the beginning of the season. And the league folds due to a lack of "coaches". It's not worth the effort for them. And then, I'm sitting at home, wondering where the games are.

So, Warren, what you did was absolutely appropriate for a 10-year old Rec league. You never would do it at a HS level, but adjusted to the coach to whom you were talking. You could have used the "Dump 'Em" screwdriver, but went to another tool in your box. You told him where he screwed up, kept control at all times, and went on with the game. IMHO, Good Call.

[carolinablue]

Warren,

I am not criticizing you in any way but was just wondering that since it sounds like you were PU with a runner on base ( BU in B or C ) shouldn't that have been your partners call ? I know it was a small diamond game so maybe you weren't working the " V ". Again no negativity intended.

Also, Why didn't you go to the replay booth ?:wow:

[Umpire in Chief]

Warren,

I am not criticizing you in any way but was just wondering that since it sounds like you were PU with a runner on base ( BU in B or C ) shouldn't that have been your partners call ? I know it was a small diamond game so maybe you weren't working the " V ". Again no negativity intended.

Also, Why didn't you go to the replay booth ?

We had nobody aboard so my partner was in A. He said he watched the tag and when he went to pick up the ball it was already over.

[Mr Umpire]

Warren,

I am not criticizing you in any way but was just wondering that since it sounds like you were PU with a runner on base ( BU in B or C ) shouldn't that have been your partners call ? I know it was a small diamond game so maybe you weren't working the " V ". Again no negativity intended.

Also, Why didn't you go to the replay booth ?

There were no runners on which is why his partner didn't see it (Good partner) and he came out beside the mound (Good job).

[noumpere]

If I put the ball in play and there is no runner on second I will immediately call time and declare the runner on second out.' (Don't ask me where I came up with that rule, I'm sort of thinking of abandonment, but who knows)

He calmly said, "You do what you have to do I'll do what I have to do."

I look at the coach, put the ball in play and then call time again and declare the runner out.

Go ahead and skewer me and tell me what you think about the situation.

Failing to follow an umpire's directive is grounds for ejection, not for an out.

[DirtyDawg]

I agree. In a case where the play is looking to be close in the outfield, it is the base umpire's job to turn his back to you and go out. You would then in turn take the bases in a one man system watching the tag ups.

I have also noticed that a lot of the responses end with an ejection. As an umpire all of my coaches know how hard headed I am. I stick to any call I make (hell I had a ball hit foul, hit the bag, and roll foul again last night. I had already made my mind up to call it foul, and even though I knew as soon as I made my call it was fair, I stuck with it). They all realize this and I'll let them come up and make their point, but they realize that it's not going to help the situation any and it's because of this I can say that I have yet to have an ejection.

Another reason is because in all of the leagues I do there is a lot of paperwork involved after the ejection, and I am lazy and really don't feel like doing homework on top of my homework from school. I have two extremely hard classes right now and don't have time for more.

I do understand that my umpiring career is still very young, and I'm no where near seeing everything as well as having to handle extremely intense situations. I'm sure my list of ejections will definately start somewhere, but until that day I play on handling each and every situation as calmly and as professionally as I can.

I am actually taking a class right now and in it I was taught this new method to handling intense situations. It is called the side step method. How this method works is it takes the confrontation down a level by allowing the umpire to stay at the coaches side rather than to be locked nose to nose in a combatative position. Just a thought!

[BrianC14]

....

A footnote here: nothing personal but since I joined in the spring I've noticed that a lot of comments focus on "throwing 'em". I pointed this out during summer ball. Around here, if I ejected as much as recommended I would be blackballed from a lot of leagues.

Question: what's your percentage of ejections/# of games?

Spring season: 0.02778

Summer season: 0.03125

Fall season: 0.0000

:wow:

[noumpere]

I agree. In a case where the play is looking to be close in the outfield, it is the base umpire's job to turn his back to you and go out. You would then in turn take the bases in a one man system watching the tag ups.

That's not true in a 2-man system when the ball is hit to the left of center, as in the OP.

Another reason is because in all of the leagues I do there is a lot of paperwork involved after the ejection, and I am lazy and really don't feel like doing homework on top of my homework from school. I have two extremely hard classes right now and don't have time for more.

Then you shouldn't be doing the games in the first place.

[carolinablue]

Sorry. I misread. Your first line says nobody on board. I don't know what I was reading.:wow:

[BrianC14]

Another aspect for the base umpire in this situation is that the base umpire should be available to help his partner on this. The excuse about watching the batter/runner touch first is just that - an excuse.

When the ball is hit, the proper mechanic for the base umpire is to "watch the ball, glance at the runner". That allows the base umpire to follow the flight of the ball, then glance. Follow the flight, glance. It doesn't take but a second (or less) to see that the B/R touched the base.

[Mr Umpire]

Another aspect for the base umpire in this situation is that the base umpire should be available to help his partner on this. The excuse about watching the batter/runner touch first is just that - an excuse.

When the ball is hit, the proper mechanic for the base umpire is to "watch the ball, glance at the runner". That allows the base umpire to follow the flight of the ball, then glance. Follow the flight, glance. It doesn't take but a second (or less) to see that the B/R touched the base.

And, it doesn't take but a second for OBS or anything else to happen while the BR is on his way to 1B. The ball going to LC is not the base umpire's responsibility in any form. Many clinics teach that. Watch the BR until he touches if BU is not going out on the ball. After that, pick up the ball again.

This is not a place for BU to be looking at the ball while cutting in. Once he does that, then he can look for the ball and if he sees the play, Great. If not, work with what the PU has.

Maybe, BU looked as soon as BR touched but it was too late. Until his responsibility is over, he shouldn't be watching the ball going to the outfield. Not his responsibility which is one of the limitations to a 2 man crew.

[Mr Umpire]

Then you shouldn't be doing the games in the first place.

I agree. If you are not ejecting b/c you feel like not doing any reports, then stop umpiring. If you are not b/c you don't know when to or want to give leeway for a kicked call, then we have all been there.

Both undermine the next umpire but at least the second reason can be worked on and is more excusable than the first.

Also, the turn sideways method may work but only on amateur coaches. I have never seen one time that it did work though. Not even in LL games. The moment a hothead comes out yelling, he is not going to give 2 sh*ts about how your body is facing him. Many coaches continue yelling and more even if the umpire is turned away from him or walking away from him.

Your career is young and you haven't met these fools. But, they are out there. And, the only way to deal with them is to make them leave.

I have only 1 EJ this year and the kid slammed his bat on the ground in disgust to a Strike 2 call.

Letting a coach have his say within reason to a kicked call is one thing. But, avoiding EJ just to not fill out a report is a ridiculous reason.

I agree with JJB about not EJ every time in rec ball. The limits have to be greater such as this case. I don't believe his comment of "Do what you have to" earns an EJ of him in this case. And, though made up, I feel calling the runner out works better in this situation than EJ the runner for not listening. Next time, he will consider putting the runner back for 2 bases and possibly score than 2 bases and now is out for no reason.

Rec ball is designed to be fun for the participants. Not all umpires are suited to do rec ball b/c they can't distinguish between higher caliber coaches and coaching-just-to-be coaches.

Know and understand the level of play before calling that level. Otherwise, you will have no participants left in any of your games and you will be sitting at home while everyone else is umpiring.

[BrianC14]

And, it doesn't take but a second for OBS or anything else to happen while the BR is on his way to 1B. The ball going to LC is not the base umpire's responsibility in any form. Many clinics teach that. Watch the BR until he touches if BU is not going out on the ball. After that, pick up the ball again.

This is not a place for BU to be looking at the ball while cutting in. Once he does that, then he can look for the ball and if he sees the play, Great. If not, work with what the PU has.

Maybe, BU looked as soon as BR touched but it was too late. Until his responsibility is over, he shouldn't be watching the ball going to the outfield. Not his responsibility which is one of the limitations to a 2 man crew.

Well then so much for the 'team concept' of umpiring then, huh?

Look at the ball, glance at the runner. OBS either happens or not... there's no excuse for staring at a base runner. Read the play. As BU, when you're coming in, you've got to move what - 30 feet? 35 feet? The base is 90 feet for the batter/runner. There IS time to look at the ball, then glance at the runner. OBS isn't going to happen on his way to first - if it happens at all, it'll be as he rounds 1B; (e.g., he's already touched the base at that point). If F3 doesn't know how to play the position, then sure, he might stick around and stare stupidly at the ball... or, if he know his job, he'll be coming inside to take a potential cutoff or to backup an infielder when the throw comes in. Sure, there are some slow-wits that play the game, and if they stand in the runner's way, then all you have to do is GLANCE at the play (the OBS) -- (since you're glancing at the runner, you should also be able to see where F3 is and what's he's doing when you glance over, should you not)?

I'm fully aware that a ball to left-center isn't the base umpire's responsibility - but understand that in the context of responsibility, they're talking about the CATCH. Just because the mechanics book says you don't have responsibility doesn't mean you shouldn't be actively engaged in what's going on around you. What if you HAD seen the ball hit the ground and bounce over? (Bear in mind here that UIC is looking at it straight on... your angle from the base position might give you an advantage over the UIC's angle).

Look at the ball, glance at the runner.

If a ball is hit down the LF line, and it's hooking foul - do you rush in to the infield every time and pivot and look at the B/R, or do you look at the ball and see that it's going foul, and then stop running in? It's not your responsibility, and yet - you're looking at the ball, aren't you?

"Work with what the plate umpire has" ? In this situation, the plate umpire has come to YOU to ask what you saw. So you're going to tell him that you were gawking at the B/R all the way down the line and beyond?

I'm not suggesting that this would work in every single case, there are times when looking at the ball just as it's clearing the fence (or bouncing over it) might get your partner off a very big meat hook. With only two umpires out there, it's incumbent upon the umpires to do everything they can to help each other out by maximizing the two man system.

Team work. Look at the ball, glance at the runner. I didn't invent those concepts, but I did learn about them from some pretty knowledgable umpires.

I"m just sayin....

Edited October 13, 2009 by BrianC14

[Mr Umpire]

Well then so much for the 'team concept' of umpiring then, huh?

Sure, if you want to be naive about the whole thing. No problem, whatever works. I guess it is just that time of year.

If a ball is hit down the LF line, and it's hooking foul - do you rush in to the infield every time and pivot and look at the B/R, or do you look at the ball and see that it's going foul, and then stop running in? It's not your responsibility, and yet - you're looking at the ball, aren't you?

If it is a sharp hit down the line, then the play of going foul and is called happens before you can react or get very far. But, if it is one down the line high in the air and hooking to the line, are you still standing at 1B to watch and see what it does before you cut in?

Sounds like your PU has everything before you decide to move. I'm just sayin....

It depends how the whole play develops. Just maybe, the ball went to the fence at the moment the BU looked and saw the BR touch 1B. Maybe, all of the facts could be useful. I'm just sayin....

And, a 2nd year ump may not feel confident enough for all of that just yet. I'm just sayin....

[mstaylor]

Brian:

Slight problem, the mechanic is to look at the runner, glance at the ball, pick up the ball after the touch at first to determine if you are taking him to second or having a possible throwback at first. The ball is the PU's responsibility here,if you happen to pick up the ball going over fine but it isn't your job.

As far as the nuber of ejection suggestions, there are places to eject, period. The thing is many situations presented on internet boards are from less experienced umpires so they haven't been exposed to handling situations so they have more cases where they will be in ejectable positions. Read the four stages of umpiring post and it will support what I am saying.

As an umpire gains experience in handling games and participants their ejection rate will lower. I have had as many as 25 or 30 ejections, many protecting less experienced umpires. I may have had two or three over the last couple of years. They know locally I will toss so I don't have to. If I am working outside my area I still present an image of knowledge and confidence so I don't generally get into stupid arguments.

The funny thing is I did have an ejection on a similar argument where it was a catch/no catch down the LFL and I wouldn't ask my partner for help because I knew he was watching the runner. That was last year in a men's wooden bat league, the second that game. That may have been the total for the two years, maybe one more.

[BrianC14]

Brian:

Slight problem, the mechanic is to look at the runner, glance at the ball, pick up the ball after the touch at first to determine if you are taking him to second or having a possible throwback at first. The ball is the PU's responsibility here,if you happen to pick up the ball going over fine but it isn't your job.

As far as the nuber of ejection suggestions, there are places to eject, period. The thing is many situations presented on internet boards are from less experienced umpires so they haven't been exposed to handling situations so they have more cases where they will be in ejectable positions. Read the four stages of umpiring post and it will support what I am saying.

As an umpire gains experience in handling games and participants their ejection rate will lower. I have had as many as 25 or 30 ejections, many protecting less experienced umpires. I may have had two or three over the last couple of years. They know locally I will toss so I don't have to. If I am working outside my area I still present an image of knowledge and confidence so I don't generally get into stupid arguments.

The funny thing is I did have an ejection on a similar argument where it was a catch/no catch down the LFL and I wouldn't ask my partner for help because I knew he was watching the runner. That was last year in a men's wooden bat league, the second that game. That may have been the total for the two years, maybe one more.

Mike, I think on a long ball like the one in the OP, you have plenty of time to see the touch at 1B while also having the time to look back at the ball. Especially on a trouble ball, a second set of eyes at a critical moment can do wonders. It isn't an absolute, of course, and I mentioned that in my earlier post - I just think that too many guys read a manual and get stuck to "this is my job, and I'm going to do nothing else", when in fact umpiring in 2-man BEGS for a bit of latitude from the book says. I don't mean to say that one's responsibility should be 'short cut', but in a situation like OP, there's time for help to be given.

But what would I know? Oh - wait - my response is based on experience... this happened in a spring scrimmage in early season - the grass was brown, the trees behind the fence were bare, and the ball was brown... "Did that go?" asked my partner. And as luck would have it, I had a better angle and saw it hit the steel beam that held up the score board. It was a lucky "glance" but we ended up with a home run vs. a double and a SH*#ty end of the stick.

That's what I mean about TEAMWORK, Mr. Umpire. :WTF

[BrianC14]

Sure, if you want to be naive about the whole thing. No problem, whatever works. I guess it is just that time of year.

If it is a sharp hit down the line, then the play of going foul and is called happens before you can react or get very far. But, if it is one down the line high in the air and hooking to the line, are you still standing at 1B to watch and see what it does before you cut in?

Sounds like your PU has everything before you decide to move. I'm just sayin....

It depends how the whole play develops. Just maybe, the ball went to the fence at the moment the BU looked and saw the BR touch 1B. Maybe, all of the facts could be useful. I'm just sayin....

And, a 2nd year ump may not feel confident enough for all of that just yet. I'm just sayin....

Thanks for being so obtuse. Not to mention condescending. It adds so much to the discussion.

Is everything on your planet so black and white? :WTF

[DirtyDawg]

Then you shouldn't be doing the games in the first place.

I don't umpire because of the paperwork. I umpire because I love the game. I have done the player and umpire part of the game before, and moving to a new city the only way I could remain a part of the game was to umpire. I figured what the hell, tried it out, and fell in love with it.

I just feel like from hearing all these dumping comments that it's making people look like they are just power hungry people who are still bitter that they couldn't make it to the major leagues.

[BrianC14]

I don't umpire because of the paperwork. I umpire because I love the game. I have done the player and umpire part of the game before, and moving to a new city the only way I could remain a part of the game was to umpire. I figured what the hell, tried it out, and fell in love with it.

I just feel like from hearing all these dumping comments that it's making people look like they are just power hungry people who are still bitter that they couldn't make it to the major leagues.

Dawg: Just as information, the numbers I provided are factual. Last spring I had one ejection in 36 games.

In summer, 1 in 32 games.

Fall - 0 in about 6 games.

I must be lucky to be where I am; ejections are the exception rather than the rule out my way. I don't like written reports either; but for that one ejection, my report consisted of 25 words. We use the "KISS" method here.

[DirtyDawg]

I understand that reports will come and they will go, and when it is my turn to write my report, I will do just that. Most of my experiences come from softball, so if they are a little off beat from the baseball ways, I am sorry. In softball I am was taught that when I am on the bases I am to take the runner to second base and let the PU take the play at third whilest I go around and cover the PU's responsibilities at the plate, does this not hold true in baseball?

[BrianC14]

I understand that reports will come and they will go, and when it is my turn to write my report, I will do just that. Most of my experiences come from softball, so if they are a little off beat from the baseball ways, I am sorry. In softball I am was taught that when I am on the bases I am to take the runner to second base and let the PU take the play at third whilest I go around and cover the PU's responsibilities at the plate, does this not hold true in baseball?

No!

In fact, the latest Referee magazine (November 2009) on P. 51 has a very good article about the mechanics of when the plate umpire is to cover third... and it clearly points out (as does the CCUA manual) that the base umpire NEVER leaves the infield to take the plate.