Retouch Home ?

[carolinablue]

This came up on another board, and I asked this question but have had no response. It's bugging me so I thought I would try here. In a situation where a runner has missed a base ( let's say third, but it could be any other ) and needs to return but has crossed home while ball is live, does he need to retouch home on his way back to the base.

I know rule 7.02 ( OBR ) says a runner must touch all bases in order and if returning touch them in reverse order. Based on that rule I would say that he would need to retouch home on his way back but there are some that say no.

If I understand what they are saying it is that since home is the last base in the sequence, and the rule does not say for sure they have to retouch it, that indeed they don't have to. These are some credible people so I am not fast to discount them. Maybe someone here can help me out.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Here's my take on your question...

It may have a different name and shape but to me it doesn't change its importance in the rule situation you describe here.

IMHO, if a player missed a base, after he has crossed home plate he needs to retouch startuing with home plate. My reasoning for this is after touching home the runner has legally aquired the right to said location and scores a run. So if a bag was missed be it 1st second or third, the runner must retouch in reverse order starting with the last corner location touched that being home.

I think 7.02 is the perfect justification for your ruling.

I will throw in a couple of other things here to keep in mind..the ball needs to be live for all this to happen and a following runner can not have also crossed home BUT that throws more into this than you are asking

[willv28]

If the ball is dead, he can't go retouch, example, on a home run, once he touched home he forfeited his right to go retouch 3rd or any other base he missed once he touched the next. Also, if a following runner crossed the plate, he cannot go retouch 3rd.

As for having to retouch home plate. I'm not sure. There is technically no baseline after the plate, so it's hard to say. That is his end line and there's no next base. I'd imagine he'd have to at least not do anything to deliberately confuse the defense. Like, touch home, wander like everything is cool and then bolt off to touch 3rd.

[mstaylor]

I would require him to retouch home on the way back to third.

[carolinablue]

I would require him to retouch home on the way back to third.

Thanks for the replies.

Micheal, you say this as if it would be up to the discretion of the ruling umpire and his interpretation, is this correct.?

[frenchblue]

Here's my take on your question...

It may have a different name and shape but to me it doesn't change its importance in the rule situation you describe here.

IMHO, if a player missed a base, after he has crossed home plate he needs to retouch startuing with home plate. My reasoning for this is after touching home the runner has legally aquired the right to said location and scores a run. So if a bag was missed be it 1st second or third, the runner must retouch in reverse order starting with the last corner location touched that being home.

I think 7.02 is the perfect justification for your ruling.

I will throw in a couple of other things here to keep in mind..the ball needs to be live for all this to happen and a following runner can not have also crossed home BUT that throws more into this than you are asking

7.02 would IMO would cover this. It does not say anything about home or the baseline after home (b/c there is none), but I would interpret the rule to cover the situation you posted.

The blue from Nova Scotia is absolutly right...:givebeer:

[mstaylor]

I personally believe the rule requiring the runner to retouch in order if returning to a base covers this. To me I don't see a difference between the plate and any other base in this respect but there is nothing definitive in the rules. As a rules interpreter, if I got a call from an umpire or coach with this question, I would answer that he has to touch the plate on the way back.

[Umpire in Chief]

Okay it's late/early and I'm too lazy to grab any books, but I believe there is something that states once the runner has scored he cannot return to retouch a base.

Please correct me.

[Finnblue]

Now add another runner scoring after him... Let's have a situation:

Runners at first and second, Batter hits one deep right center, sure double. Both runners score, but R2 missed third base. So he returns, touching home first then stops on third base.

Your call?

MS

[BrianC14]

Now add another runner scoring after him... Let's have a situation:

Runners at first and second, Batter hits one deep right center, sure double. Both runners score, but R2 missed third base. So he returns, touching home first then stops on third base.

Your call?

MS

(1) R2 cannot LEGALLY return to touch third base, because a following runner scored behind him.

(2) It's nothing unless the defense appeals the miss of 3B by R2.

(3) If the defense successfully appeals the miss of third, then R2 is out.

[Finnblue]

So you let him stand on third?

MS

[noumpere]

So you let him stand on third?

MS

That isn't at all what he said. When play is over, remove the runner from the base.

The answer to the OP depends on whether it's a live ball or a dead ball (e.g., home run) and whether the runner then returns home.

If it's a dead ball, he can't legally return to third if he touches (reaches) home -- assuming, of course, that the ball was dead before the runner reached home.

If it's a live ball, then the runner can return to third. If he misses home and then remains on third, he's liable to be out on an appeal at home. If he misses home, then touches third, then returns home (wtf is the defense doing during all of this?), then he has completed his baserunning responsibilities under the "last time by" concept and no appeal should be upheld.

[Finnblue]

That isn't at all what he said. When play is over, remove the runner from the base.

My bad, I didn't notice.

MS

[mstaylor]

That isn't at all what he said. When play is over, remove the runner from the base.

The answer to the OP depends on whether it's a live ball or a dead ball (e.g., home run) and whether the runner then returns home.

If it's a dead ball, he can't legally return to third if he touches (reaches) home -- assuming, of course, that the ball was dead before the runner reached home.

If it's a live ball, then the runner can return to third. If he misses home and then remains on third, he's liable to be out on an appeal at home. If he misses home, then touches third, then returns home (wtf is the defense doing during all of this?), then he has completed his baserunning responsibilities under the "last time by" concept and no appeal should be upheld.

This then brings the question of a gross miss. Runner is going to third base dugout and the coach says retouch. The runner simply goes directly to third and then rescores. This is a gross miss and not correctable by last time by. Other than my narrow caveat I agree with you.

Okay it's late/early and I'm too lazy to grab any books, but I believe there is something that states once the runner has scored he cannot return to retouch a base.

Please correct me.

OK stand corrected, just kidding. You are correct that a runner that has LEGALLY scored may not return to a base even if he believed he missed a base. However, if he has missed a base and nobody has scored behind him and the ball is live then he can return but must retouch in order.

[carolinablue]

I may be misunderstanding, but are you saying that if a runner touches home and then heads back to the dugout and is halfway there and coach yells you missed third, he cannot return to touch third even if he retouched home first because it would be a gross miss.

Or are you saying if he goes directly to third from near the dugout that it would be a gross miss of home and he then would not be able to go back and retouch home and then third from that point. Provided the defense is in the twilight zone and allows all that to happen.

Edited September 22, 2009 by carolinablue

[frenchblue]

I may be misunderstanding, but are you saying that if a runner touches home and then heads back to the dugout and is halfway there and coach yells you missed third, he cannot return to touch third even if he retouched home first because it would be a gross miss.

Or are you saying if he goes directly to third from near the dugout that it would be a gross miss of home and he then would not be able to go back and retouch home and then third from that point. Provided the defense is in the twilight zone and allows all that to happen.

How I interpret the rule is that a player must touch home and then go strait to thrid to retouch the base. He cannot be heading back to the dugout and all of a sudden have the coach tell him to retouch third and go back home. He would need to go back and touch home, in my rule interpretation. He would need to retouch the plate and reform (or if recreate sounds better) his base bathpath back to third, and then go back and touch home (to score the run legally)...

[mstaylor]

I may be misunderstanding, but are you saying that if a runner touches home and then heads back to the dugout and is halfway there and coach yells you missed third, he cannot return to touch third even if he retouched home first because it would be a gross miss.

Or are you saying if he goes directly to third from near the dugout that it would be a gross miss of home and he then would not be able to go back and retouch home and then third from that point. Provided the defense is in the twilight zone and allows all that to happen.

I am saying if he tries to go straight from his spot near the dugout and go straight to third without retouching home, it would bea gross miss and even he rescored he would be liable for an appeal at home. If he is close to touching the plate, steps over or beside it, then he could go back to third and rescore, correcting his miss with a last time by.

[Aging_Arbiter]

If the ball is dead, he can't go retouch, example, on a home run, once he touched home he forfeited his right to go retouch 3rd or any other base he missed once he touched the next. Also, if a following runner crossed the plate, he cannot go retouch 3rd.

As for having to retouch home plate. I'm not sure. There is technically no baseline after the plate, so it's hard to say. That is his end line and there's no next base. I'd imagine he'd have to at least not do anything to deliberately confuse the defense. Like, touch home, wander like everything is cool and then bolt off to touch 3rd.

There is tehnically no baseline until a play is being made on the runner. Before or after home is irrelevant at this point.

I too agree with 7.02 as pointed out, and as any other required retouch, home is a base.

[willv28]

I am saying if he tries to go straight from his spot near the dugout and go straight to third without retouching home, it would bea gross miss and even he rescored he would be liable for an appeal at home. If he is close to touching the plate, steps over or beside it, then he could go back to third and rescore, correcting his miss with a last time by.

Question, what if he does head for the dugout, but tries to retouch third and there is no appeal made?

[mstaylor]

Then if he has indeed missed third then if they don't appeal the plate then he stays. If he hasn't missed a base and has legally scored then pull him off base and score the run.

[Mr Umpire]

Then if he has indeed missed third then if they don't appeal the plate then he stays. If he hasn't missed a base and has legally scored then pull him off base and score the run.

While I agree with the interpretation and getting the runner off the base and scoring the run, why should we have to? If the offense is dumb enough to remove a scored run off the board, why do we need to correct it?

I'm just saying if they are dumb enough to do it, then they should deal with the consequence of possibly losing that run for good. I don't like the idea of having to fix their mistake.

I will do it but I don't like it.

[mstaylor]

I agree that they should be smart enough to know if they hit the base or not and I was surprised that was the way the pro rulebook was when I learned that rule years back, but will do it the way the book says. To be honest, I don't think I've ever had the call to make.