Obstruction

[mstaylor]

I was just reading the pickle thread and the subsequent obstruction discussion. I started to take the thread further away from the OP but decided to start a new thread. In OBR, there are two completely different types of obstruction. I want to discuss the differences and reason for them.

Type A:

The way to identify type A is there is a play being made on the runner. Kill the ball imediately and award the next base. The reason for type A is it is meant to be punitive. The rules makers felt that direct obstruction is unsporting so should be dealt with harshly.

Type B:

This is obstruction committed against a runner when the ball is nowhere near the runner being obstructed. Many times it is accidental or caused by inattention. In this case you don't call time until the play has become unrelaxed or the obstructed runner is put out. At this point you decide whether to award bases, leave him where he is or has overrun his protection and remains out.

In FED:

Obstruction is handled differently. It is always a delayed dead ball but always at least a base past last legally touched. Fed believes that all obstruction needs to be handled punitively per the one base award for all obstruction.

Many umpires overcomplicates obstruction, so I thought I would shed some light on the subject.

[Don in Washington]

I agree with your description of the OBR interpretation as LL is applying it the same way. The problem in LL is too many umpires don't recognize "type B" when it occurs. From JR's and below it happens alot at first base but is not called.

Don

[willv28]

Don, what is happening at 1st base that you think is OBS? I've never had to call OBS anywhere near 1st base. Closest is when the fielder is not paying attention on a ball hit to the outfield and he's about 6 feet off the bag and doesn't move so the runner runs into him.

Edited August 11, 2009 by willv28

[Don in Washington]

Don, what is happening at 1st base that you think is OBS? I've never had to call OBS anywhere near 1st base. Closest is when the fielder is not paying attention on a ball hit to the outfield and he's about 6 feet off the bag and doesn't move so the fielder runs into him.

That's OBS. Exactly as you described happens with great frequency. BR is looking at the ball after the hit & reading the defense to continue to 2nd or looking at the base coach and doesn't see F3...collision, or gets held up due to avoiding the collision. Or we see this one alot. Base hit. F3 goes and stands on on the bag after the hit, even though there won't be a throw to first. BR has to side step/go around and reach-step for a touch of the base. I know. Poor coaching, but it happens. But it occures at all the bases. And each time we as umpires need to call it! This year my assoc made a point of calling it all the time, and by the end of the season the type B OBS had almost disappeared.

Early in the year I was explaining the OBS call to many a coach/manager after the game. Or should I say holding class.

Don

[willv28]

That's OBS. Exactly as you described happens with great frequency. BR is looking at the ball after the hit & reading the defense to continue to 2nd or looking at the base coach and doesn't see F3...collision, or gets held up due to avoiding the collision. Or we see this one alot. Base hit. F3 goes and stands on on the bag after the hit, even though there won't be a throw to first. BR has to side step/go around and reach-step for a touch of the base. I know. Poor coaching, but it happens. But it occures at all the bases. And each time we as umpires need to call it! This year my assoc made a point of calling it all the time, and by the end of the season the type B OBS had almost disappeared.

Early in the year I was explaining the OBS call to many a coach/manager after the game. Or should I say holding class.

Don

Believe it or not, I was describing a Type B situation that has NEVER happened to me. If there's three things they stress around here is avoiding OBS/INT/Leaving Early.

For the second situation you describe. Maybe some umpires are ignoring it since most of the time the runner have reached the base they would have without the OBS? Since it's a delayed dead ball, you only vocalize it when it happens and if they made the base you believed they would have, then you don't impose a penalty. I guess some are just taking short cuts by just ignoring it when it's obviously going to have no effect on the play? I could see some people doing that.

Actually, I've only been umpiring about 3 years and I've yet to see a Type B at all. Only had to call INT once and OBS once as well.

[LMSANS]

Believe it or not, I was describing a Type B situation that has NEVER happened to me. If there's three things they stress around here is avoiding OBS/INT/Leaving Early.

For the second situation you describe. Maybe some umpires are ignoring it since most of the time the runner have reached the base they would have without the OBS? Since it's a delayed dead ball, you only vocalize it when it happens and if they made the base you believed they would have, then you don't impose a penalty. I guess some are just taking short cuts by just ignoring it when it's obviously going to have no effect on the play? I could see some people doing that.

Actually, I've only been umpiring about 3 years and I've yet to see a Type B at all. Only had to call INT once and OBS once as well.

I see the type B all the time in lower levels of softball. I make the DDB signal and watch the play. Usually it has no effect so I let it go until between innings I let the coach know (this is lower level, Frosh, 13u). I don't see it much in baseball, but then again I don't work the small diamond in baseball.

[mstaylor]

If you see obstruction, announce it. It doesn't mean that you have to award bases, but you want to make everyone know it is noticed. That is the beauty of the type B obstruction, nothing is automatic.

[Dragon29]

If you see obstruction, announce it. It doesn't mean that you have to award bases, but you want to make everyone know it is noticed. That is the beauty of the type B obstruction, nothing is automatic.

I agree completely - See it, point at it and announce "That's Obstruction!" and wait for the play to complete.

The biggest problem I run into when doing this is when no award is warranted; I always end up having to explain to the OM why I'm not advancing his runner.

But, I'll take that headache over having to explain to the DM why I am advancing the runner when I didn't announce OBS in the first place.

[mstaylor]

I don't have a problem explaining why I'm not awarding bases, usually I can do it in a way the defense hears and maybe slow it down.

[Dragon29]

OK - I guess I really didn't mean 'problem'; I probably should have said 'issue'

The most fun I have with this is when F3 has his back turned, BR runs into him on his way to 2B & the DM wants the BR called Out for INT!

Gotta love the rats!

[th3]

I don't agree that you should vocalize type b obstruction. I just stick my fist way out to the side. Why do you have to make sure they know you saw it? By saying "that's obstruction" I think you risk making someone think that play is stopped. I did asa softball before bb so type a is new to me. And I learned something about fed! Thanks

Edited August 11, 2009 by th3

[Dragon29]

Why do you have to make sure they know you saw it?

Primarly to avoid a good portion of the upcoming sh!tstorm. I'd rather they know something's coming than to simply surprise them at the end of the play.

By saying "that's obstruction" I think you risk making someone think that play is stopped.

This has never happened to me. You point it out, but stay in the play. Now, on Type A OBS, the call is "Time! That Obstruction." and then you make your base award.

[Don in Washington]

The games I see type B OBS on a regular basis is for 14yo and younger. Bad coaching I guess. But in the last few seasons it's rare if I DON'T have a least 1 type B OBS in a game for these ages. But as my assoc made this a concerted effort to call/signal it, it disappeared quickly this season.

The proper mechanic for type B OBS is to vocalize it while pointing to the spot where it occured and allow play to continue. If play stops, that's not your problem. If you don't announce it and then go to enforce it be ready for a headache.

It's not something you have to go hunting for.

Don

[mstaylor]

Dragon 29 and are agreeing down the line. I do not use the Fed mechanic of the arm to the side, I announce it as per OBR and sort it out at the end of play. I don't know a single player or manager that knows what the arm to the side means so showing it does no good.

Probably eight years ago there was a play-off game that had two obstructions in it, both at third. The first was type A and third was awarded. The second was type B and Roberto Alamar collided with the thirdbaseman and the obstruction was announced. Knucklehead assumed he was getting home and slowed almost to a walk and got thrown out. The out stood because he gave up on the play instead of running it out. Just because he is an idiot is no reason to not to do it correctly.

[PeteBooth]

Many umpires overcomplicates obstruction, so I thought I would shed some light on the subject.

Michael the complication with OBR Type "B" is that it is possible to offer NO protection because of those 2 little words IF ANY .

remember the Porter Midnight massacre on eteamz many moons ago. In addition to that there have been other heated debates on OBS over the years.

here is what makes it complicated and why I prefer the FED ruling.

F1 trys to pick off R1 who is diving back into the first base bag. F3 obstructs R1. Since a play is being made on the runner we call TIME and award R1 second base.

Similar play.

B1 singles to left center. He rounds the bag, thinks twice about going to second but on his way back to the first base bag he is obstructed by F3.

Since no play is being made on the runner, it's type B and most likely all an umpire will offer protection to would be first base.

So here we have 2 similar plays on runners going back to first base. One which is type 'A" and said runner gets second base even though he had no intentions of going there. One which is type 'B" and the umpire protects him back to first base only.

That's why IMO the OBR ruling is complex.

FWIW IMO, OBS should be penalized.

When we rule interference we do not "wait and see" irregardless if the player could still make the play or not. For the most part (will not list exceptions in this OP) Interference is enforced 'right away" yet OBS Type "B" we wait and see and can make awards if necessary or make no awards.

That's why I like the FED rule. if a runner is obstructed they are going to get at least one base beyond the point where they were obstructed. Easy to understand.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

I understand what you are saying Pete, we have sparred over this more than once. Yes, I do remember the midnight massacre at Eteamz, I was involved with the discussion. Many of my posts went away when Jim 86ed the thread.

The basic difference is in philosophy between OBR and Fed. In Fed they want all obstructions to be punitive hense the "at least one base" award. Fed also has a tendency to make to the LCD for the umpires hense the delayed dead ball all the time. OBR takes a different view. They believe obstucting a player being played on should be punished severely so you will always get at least a base. Obstucting a runner not being played on many times is accidental through inattentivness so you are to mearly nullify the obstruction.

I agree it would be simplier to do the Fed way but that can lead to problems also. You have a rundown and the runner is obstructed you still let the play go which can lead to a possible MC because the runner is now mad. And we well know, MC trumps obstruction. Now you have to deal with a mad OM because his runner got obstructed but called out and ejected. If Fed had an A/B type obstruction but with always awarding a base that would be better.

[scobes7]

I love the Fed rule and yes I do use the mechanic.....very easy to enforce with little or no back talk from the coach if you use the right tone and confidence in you voice while calling it. Usually end up the one's bitching the most about the call is the kid that obstructed the runner...:WTF

[noumpere]

The games I see type B OBS on a regular basis is for 14yo and younger.

I see (or, more accurately, saw when I worked those levels) F3 standing in the path the runner would take if the BR was trying for second. Sometimes, there was even contact. Rarely, however, was it obstruction. If BR was slowing down to return to first, then he wasn't really hindered by F3's actions. I think it's over-the-top to point and call obstruction on this. Just have a word with F3 about staying out of the way.

And, this happens at the levels I work today -- just not as often. And, it's usually just a reminder to F3 that I'm watching and the problem goes away.

[mstaylor]

If the fielder is in the way, contact or not, and the runner has to slow down or alter his path, that is obstruction and should be announced. Now the play may end in a number of ways:

1. the ball comes right back in and the runner returns. If you think that is the result of the play then back to first with him.

2. he continues on to second and either is thrown out or is safe. If he is safe then no award most likely. He ended up where you protected him to.

Now if he is thrown out you have to umpire. Did he get thrown out on a close play? If so probably he gets second. If he is thrown out by a large margin then he probably overran his protection and is stay out.

3. He is knocked down by the F3 and returns to first. Again you have to decide if he would have made second without the knockdown. If so then award second.

Think of obstruction as a time/distance problem. If the runner is obstructed figure the amount of time he was obstructed and figure a distance to correct it. This isn't perfect but a good start.

Also, equate not announcing obstruction with warning balks. You can warn players game after game but the first time a runner is advanced due to balk or obstruction and they will stop the behavior. I used to warn players about staying out of the way if it affect play. I have since learned announcing it will make the coach get into it and the problem gets fixed quicker.

[noumpere]

I don't mean to sound like TimC, but the actions you describe might be appropriate for little league, but the actions I describe are appropriate for high school (including frosh) and above. It would not look good if you announced obstruction when BR had no intention of advancing.

[NWA_UMP]

Not sure about the High school ball where you live...but a lot of our guys, especially in smaller schools, don't understand foul-tip let alone OBS. I am talking about coaches! I rarely verbalize OBS unless I am making a call and moving runners. I warn the offender about what happened. I think I will start to verbalize now and explain to coach what happened. Nip it in the bud if you will. Maybe we can start to make a change to get it fixed...or at least educate some coaches.

[mstaylor]

In HS you aren't going to announce obstruction unless you are ready to award bases because the way their rules are written if you call it, you have to award. I'm sorry if I said otherwise, however, there are LL, PONY, AAU and USSSA systems that are the same age groups as HS and in those you should announce it whether you are advancing them or not. The younger ages don't know and should be told, the older ones should know and if they don't you definitely announce it.

In HS i have told infielders to make sure they get out of there because it could cause runners to advance. If they don't heed the warning then my benefit of doubt shifts way in favour of the offense.

[willv28]

Not sure about the High school ball where you live...but a lot of our guys, especially in smaller schools, don't understand foul-tip let alone OBS. I am talking about coaches! I rarely verbalize OBS unless I am making a call and moving runners. I warn the offender about what happened. I think I will start to verbalize now and explain to coach what happened. Nip it in the bud if you will. Maybe we can start to make a change to get it fixed...or at least educate some coaches.

This is somewhat a joke. But maybe when there's type B OBS you verbalize it like normal. But, then when the play is over if the runner is on the base he belongs, award him that base. Then no one can complain.

[Don in Washington]

The mechanics that MS described are right on for everythng but FED ball. Why is Fed so different?

Don

[mstaylor]

The mechanics that MS described are right on for everythng but FED ball. Why is Fed so different?

Don

Read my response to Pete Booth about why there is such a difference in FED.