Grand Slam - No runs score

[therefump]

Tonight, I worked with a guy who's been doing it for almost 40 years. He's a walking rulebook. Anyway, Sr. Connie Mack league (23 to 60 yr olds). Good baseball. Bases loaded and batter sends one over the fence. As always I watch the runner hit the bases as he's trotting around. He CLEARLY misses second base as he's too busy celebrating. I'm the BU, BTW. Defense immediately appeals once the runners clear the field. I call him OUT. PU immediately says no runs score since it's a force out.

Now I've heard of situations like this but in 28 years I've never seen it.

Question: where is this in the MLB rules? He explained the ruling to the offense when made him public enemy #1. BTW, their protesting the game which you cannot do in this league. We rule and it's final. ;)

[BrianC14]

Tonight, I worked with a guy who's been doing it for almost 40 years. He's a walking rulebook. Anyway, Sr. Connie Mack league (23 to 60 yr olds). Good baseball. Bases loaded and batter sends one over the fence. As always I watch the runner hit the bases as he's trotting around. He CLEARLY misses second base as he's too busy celebrating. I'm the BU, BTW. Defense immediately appeals once the runners clear the field. I call him OUT. PU immediately says no runs score since it's a force out.

Now I've heard of situations like this but in 28 years I've never seen it.

Question: where is this in the MLB rules? He explained the ruling to the offense when made him public enemy #1. BTW, their protesting the game which you cannot do in this league. We rule and it's final.

He said it was a "force out" ;)

[willv28]

He said it was a "force out"

Confused as well. If possible, wouldn't it only be possible if he missed first but keeping the "" around force out?

[mstaylor]

If it was the BR that missed second then it isn't a forceout. If it was R1 then it is. If it was the BR then three runs score and the BR is out.

[therefump]

If it was the BR that missed second then it isn't a forceout. If it was R1 then it is. If it was the BR then three runs score and the BR is out.

That was my thinking. It was the BR who missed second. The appeal in the PU opinion when I called him out called it a "force out".

I would think that R1 missing second would only allow 2 runs to score (R2 and R3).

I'm very good at watching runners tag bases but sometimes I think that you create sh*tstorms enforcing the rules. This being a case in point. Why do we allow the "proximity" rule on the double play ball for a fielder touching or nearly touching second for that matter?;)

[Ump Rube]

2 outs, bases loaded, HR. R3 misses HP. DEF appeals & is successful. Would this be a case where no runs would score?

[BrianC14]

....I would think that R1 missing second would only allow 2 runs to score (R2 and R3).

Um, no. R1 missing second and properly appealed is a force out, and no runs score.

[therefump]

Um, no. R1 missing second and properly appealed is a force out, and no runs score.

OK. BR misses second and it's NOT a "force out"?

R1 missing second and it is a "force out"?

Please explain the difference. Maybe the PU got confused. Like I said in my original post I just called out BR for missing second. PU enforced the "no runs score".

Also, can someone please point out where in MLB rules this is implied or stated.

[Mr Umpire]

2 outs, bases loaded, HR. R3 misses HP. DEF appeals & is successful. Would this be a case where no runs would score?

No runs score in this case no matter how many runners there are. If a preceding runner is called out on appeal with 2 outs, no trail runners behind that runner score.

So, if you have R3, R1, and R1 misses 3B. Then, out on appeal. Only 1 run scores b/c BR cannot score since R1 was called out. If R3 misses HP, then no runs score.

[Mr Umpire]

OK. BR misses second and it's NOT a "force out"?

R1 missing second and it is a "force out"?

Please explain the difference. Maybe the PU got confused. Like I said in my original post I just called out BR for missing second. PU enforced the "no runs score".

Also, can someone please point out where in MLB rules this is implied or stated.

As you know, force outs only occur when the runner is forced to that base by the batter becoming a runner. So, R1 is forced to 2B by the batter. And, 7.12 covers the fact that no runs score if the third out is the result of a force out.

BR is not forced to 2B so it is a timing play. And, with timing plays, any runners past HP, before the play, score. The BR can never be forced to any base beyond 1B. That is 1 reason why it is not a force out at 2B on the BR.

[noumpere]

Why do we allow the "proximity" rule on the double play ball for a fielder touching or nearly touching second for that matter?

We don't.

I don't know why you (apparently) do.

To be clear, in each case, I look at what I need to look at. If it's a routine play, then I don't need to look at the feet, and the benefit of the doubt goes to the defense on the DP and the offense (runner) on the home run. They need to do something (turn it into a non-routine play) for me to notice the miss.

Even in MLB, you won't find many instances of the neighboorhood play anymore. The fielders are so quick that it might look like they missed the base, but they usually get it.

Aso someone on another board puts it: Don't Be a Plumber.

[alex7]

The proximity rule has been called in an effort to protect fielders - to not make them hang in there with a runner coming in to take them out.

Being that you can't slide out of the baselines to take a fielder out in anything other than the MLB, it's a call that really has no place in NCAA, HS, or below. The middle IFer needs to be on that bag. He has no reason to pull off early, being that the runner is not going to take him out.

[Ump Rube]

With the appeal being considered a timing play, can the defense verbally make a dead-ball appeal with the runners still rounding the bases in order to try to get the out prior to other runner's scoring?

[Mr Umpire]

With the appeal being considered a timing play, can the defense verbally make a dead-ball appeal with the runners still rounding the bases in order to try to get the out prior to other runner's scoring?

This is a Calvinball[Fed] rule only. All others have to wait for the ball to be live before an appeal can be made.

[nopachunts]

With the appeal being considered a timing play, can the defense verbally make a dead-ball appeal with the runners still rounding the bases in order to try to get the out prior to other runner's scoring?

If the ball is dead, why would the runners still be advancing on the bases?

[Mr Umpire]

If the ball is dead, why would the runners still be advancing on the bases?

He is talking about a home run.

[mstaylor]

You have to allow the runners to quit running the bases before you allow any appeals.

[Umpire in Chief]

This is a Calvinball[Fed] rule only. All others have to wait for the ball to be live before an appeal can be made.

Oh boy I think this is my sites first reference to Calvinball :HD:

[zm1283]

So if we have R1 and R3, 2 outs, and the batter hits a HR. B/R misses first base. R3 scored before he missed the base, but R1 has not scored yet.

Appeal is successful, so the B/R is the third out. This is a timing play, and R3 scores only, correct?

Other situation: 2 outs, bases loaded. Home run is hit, R2 misses third and is out on appeal. No runs score since R2 is forced, correct?

Edited August 8, 2009 by zm1283

[Mr Umpire]

So if we have R1 and R3, 2 outs, and the batter hits a HR. B/R misses first base. R3 scored before he missed the base, but R1 has not scored yet.

Appeal is successful, so the B/R is the third out. This is a timing play, and R3 scores only, correct?

Other situation: 2 outs, bases loaded. Home run is hit, R2 misses third and is out on appeal. No runs score since R2 is forced, correct?

R3 does not score. Any time an appeal is a force out, no runs score if that appeal is the 3rd out. And, technically speaking, the BR is not forced to go to 1B. This is an appeal which falls under an "out made on the BR before he touched 1B". That's the best way to describe why the runs don't count and how it makes sense to me. And, to further this, the BR legally acquired 1B but he did not touch 1B, which is why all runs count until properly appealed. Then, no runs count since it is the 3rd out made by the BR before he touched 1B.

No runs score in either of your scenarios.

Now, if BR missed 2B or R2 missed HP, that is a different story.

First scenario: BR misses 2B. 2 runs score on that one. That is a timing play. And, by timing play, I mean the out was recorded after both runs scored. It does not mean he missed 2B before R1 scored. It means the out was recorded after R1 scored since appeals can only be done when the ball is live in all but Fed.

2nd scenario: R2 misses HP. 1 run scores. B/c if a preceding runner is called out on appeal and it is the 3rd out, no trailing runners can score. Rule 7.12.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[alex7]

Good stuff Mr. Umpire, thanks. FED sure is interesting. In FED then, how often CAN the defensive team appeal a missed base on a HR? Being that we can accept a dead-ball appeal from the coach or a player, do they have to wait for runners to be done, or can they make one as soon as they see it in the hopes it negates some of the runs (assuming you're correct that it's a timing play in FED)?

[mstaylor]

You have to wait the runners have completed their baserunning, they may correct their errors before the appeals are allowed to happen. The amount of appeals are the same as any other rule set, 10.

[noumpere]

So if we have R1 and R3, 2 outs, and the batter hits a HR. B/R misses first base. R3 scored before he missed the base, but R1 has not scored yet.

Appeal is successful, so the B/R is the third out. This is a timing play, and R3 scores only, correct?

As has been pointed out, no runs score.

Change the play so BR misses second, and two runs score. This is a timing play and the "time" is of the appeal (out) not of the missed base.

[PeteBooth]

Good stuff Mr. Umpire, thanks. FED sure is interesting. In FED then, how often CAN the defensive team appeal a missed base on a HR? Being that we can accept a dead-ball appeal from the coach or a player, do they have to wait for runners to be done, or can they make one as soon as they see it in the hopes it negates some of the runs (assuming you're correct that it's a timing play in FED)?

In FED we wait until ALL playing action OR base running responsibilities are COMPLETE.

THEN the coach can appeal. We will not accept any appeal while the runners are running the bases because they can still correct mistakes.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

So if we have R1 and R3, 2 outs, and the batter hits a HR. B/R misses first base. R3 scored before he missed the base, but R1 has not scored yet.

Appeal is successful, so the B/R is the third out. This is a timing play, and R3 scores only, correct?

Other situation: 2 outs, bases loaded. Home run is hit, R2 misses third and is out on appeal. No runs score since R2 is forced, correct?

SUGGESTION:

Since this is an umpire FORUM please READ the rule-book FIRST. Read section 2 defining a Force Play and then rule 4.09 which SHOULD answer any questions you might have on the play. This one is not that difficult compared to some others.

Pete Booth