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Everything posted by Texas Manny
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??? as much as I hate to, I have to agree with manny's ruling and reasoning.
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Batter Called Out For Stepping On Or Across Home Plate
Texas Manny replied to a question in Ask the Umpire
Thank you Mike. Just for clarification, the Wendelstedt Manual is just OBR interpretations. He footnotes the corresponding rules in NFHS and NCAA. The staff at WUS leaves it up to the individual umpire to cross-reference. -
Only one run, R3, shall score. No runners following a preceding runner who is called out on appeal for the 3rd out shall score.
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Batter Called Out For Stepping On Or Across Home Plate
Texas Manny replied to a question in Ask the Umpire
From the Wendelstedt Umpire School Rules & Interpretations Manual, 7.4.6 - Illegally Batted Ball, pg 122: His bat makes contact with a pitched ball with one or both of his feet on the ground entirely outside of the batter's box [6.06(a)] 274, 275. You should be especially mindful of the batter's feet in when a batter is attempting to bunt at a pitch, on a pitch out, or an intentional walk. There is no penalty for a batter stepping on home plate while contacting a pitch. Since home plate is only 6" from the lines of the batter's box, it is impossible for a batter to setp on home plate and still not be out of the batter's box. Legal: Both feet on, or within the lines of the box. May occur when batter tries to squeeze bunt on outside pitch. Illegal: One foot entirely outisde the line of the box. May occur on a swing or a bunt for a base hit. One foot entirely outside the lines of the box. May occur on a drag bunt. One foot entirely outside the lines of the box. May occur on a sacrifice bunt. Footnotes: 274: NFHS 5-1-3, 7-3-2 275: NCAA 7-10(A) End of Wendelstedt -
Glad you that you and Mr. Peterson were able to close the season out together. Sorry to hear that one team played ping pong off you all night, but you were no worse for wear. A little rest and you'll be back on the field in no time. Good job.
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Just checked the web-site. Appears the sale price of $85.00 has been extended through 1 December. Good news...
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If, as the plate umpire, you (generically speaking), do not know where the ball is, for whatever reason, you need to find it. A look at the pitcher will undoubtedly show it in his hands, either behind his back, twisting it, or in his glove. If you can't see it, then ask for it. Use the excuse you want to check the ball. That is your right. No one can argue with you wanting to check it. You now know where the ball is, and you are good to go. But you cannot just assume the pitcher has the ball. You have to know it! Otherwise you are breaking rules and setting your crew up for a clusterbubble and a hard time. Undue hold up of the game. Also, either way, you are in for a hard time b/c the DC is going to be upset you just busted his play for no reason. The OC won't care. If you don't hold up the game for no reason and they attempt it after the ball is in play, then don't call a balk or out. Again, DC is going to be upset for you busting his play. This time, you will bust it with a rule to use as support and did not hold up the game for some undue made up reason. Either way, DC isn't going to be happy. I'd rather do it with rule support than to do it b/c I wanted to make up a reason with no real just cause. Then by all means, put the ball back into play not knowing where the ball is. It's your game. By all means, ask to see the ball every time something takes you eyes off of it to talk to a coach or player about something. You missed the whole point. It's obvious in the OP's thread question that the PU did not pick the ball up again after taking his eye off it to make the substitution. I gave a plausible solution to finding it again for this exact situation, and this situation only. You modify the OP's question and make it sound like you can't find the ball again every time your eye is off it, so simply ask for the ball, and that resolves the problem, but causes undue delay. That just isn't so. But, go ahead and twist the situation or my words to fit your world. That's the norm around here. The point isn't missed. You missed it. There are lots of times when the ball can be missed of where it is at due to coaches or other things causing it. If you watch your game or any game, you will see plenty of times where the umpire has taken his eye off the ball. Going out to the mound to break up a meeting is one of them. Are you asking then? You were just there and saw it but don't know if F4 took it when you turned around. This is only one incident in an entire game. It happens more often than you want to admit it. I have never had a game where I didn't know where the ball was. Never, because I know that without the ball, nothing can happen. If I have to take my eye off the ball because of one of my responsibilities, such as pause, read, and react, or when I'm in the infield and have tag ups at 2nd and 1st, or have to make a substitution, or anything else, you can bet the farm, I'm dang sure going to find it again. A simple glance in the general area of where the ball once was will often lead you back to it because of the actions of the fielders. Time in the OP was called to make a substitution. You can't put the ball back into play until the pitcher properly assumes his position on the mound with the ball. That's the rules. I have never seen, but am not saying, that a dead ball trick play, hasn't been tried, but Rule 8.05(I) was obviously written to prevent the hidden ball trick when the ball is dead or alive with a crafty, sneaky, pitcher. My responsibility as the plate umpire is to ensure that the rules are being followed to the spirit and intent. I'm going to make dang sure that I have all the conditions fullfilled necessary before I put the ball back into play. In doing so I am not spoiling any DC plays because what he is attempting to do is illegal to begin with because the ball is dead. If, and I mean a big, huge, fat, if, the defense manages to pull a fast one, and sneaks this one by me, you bet I will nullify any play, attempted play, appeal, balk, or fart, because the ball was dead and because I made a major mistake by improperly putting the ball back in play.. But in this scenario, asking for the ball is not an undue delay of game. It's a smart way to relocate the ball, when you don't know where it is, especially since nothing can be done with it until it is put back into play.
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If, as the plate umpire, you (generically speaking), do not know where the ball is, for whatever reason, you need to find it. A look at the pitcher will undoubtedly show it in his hands, either behind his back, twisting it, or in his glove. If you can't see it, then ask for it. Use the excuse you want to check the ball. That is your right. No one can argue with you wanting to check it. You now know where the ball is, and you are good to go. But you cannot just assume the pitcher has the ball. You have to know it! Otherwise you are breaking rules and setting your crew up for a clusterbubble and a hard time. Undue hold up of the game. Also, either way, you are in for a hard time b/c the DC is going to be upset you just busted his play for no reason. The OC won't care. If you don't hold up the game for no reason and they attempt it after the ball is in play, then don't call a balk or out. Again, DC is going to be upset for you busting his play. This time, you will bust it with a rule to use as support and did not hold up the game for some undue made up reason. Either way, DC isn't going to be happy. I'd rather do it with rule support than to do it b/c I wanted to make up a reason with no real just cause. Then by all means, put the ball back into play not knowing where the ball is. It's your game. By all means, ask to see the ball every time something takes you eyes off of it to talk to a coach or player about something. You missed the whole point. It's obvious in the OP's thread question that the PU did not pick the ball up again after taking his eye off it to make the substitution. I gave a plausible solution to finding it again for this exact situation, and this situation only. You modify the OP's question, bringing in all these other situations, and make it sound like Iit couldn't find the every time I took my eye off it, so simply ask for the ball, and that resolves the problem, but causes undue delay. First, I haven't personalized this situation to me or you. Yet you personalize it by making me the umpire? Second, I'm dealing with just the OP's scenario. You are adding/subtracting scenarios and making assumptions. Third, it appears you are not grasping that the plate umpire in the OP's scenario made a mistake by errantly putting the ball back into play. But, go ahead and twist the situation or my words to fit your world. That's the norm around here.
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If, as the plate umpire, you (generically speaking), do not know where the ball is, for whatever reason, you need to find it. A look at the pitcher will undoubtedly show it in his hands, either behind his back, twisting it, or in his glove. If you can't see it, then ask for it. Use the excuse you want to check the ball. That is your right. No one can argue with you wanting to check it. You now know where the ball is, and you are good to go. But you cannot just assume the pitcher has the ball. You have to know it! Otherwise you are breaking rules and setting your crew up for a clusterbubble and a hard time. Undue hold up of the game. Also, either way, you are in for a hard time b/c the DC is going to be upset you just busted his play for no reason. The OC won't care. If you don't hold up the game for no reason and they attempt it after the ball is in play, then don't call a balk or out. Again, DC is going to be upset for you busting his play. This time, you will bust it with a rule to use as support and did not hold up the game for some undue made up reason. Either way, DC isn't going to be happy. I'd rather do it with rule support than to do it b/c I wanted to make up a reason with no real just cause. Then by all means, put the ball back into play not knowing where the ball is. It's your game.
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@Jax...That's how you come across to me. If you don't agree with it, then that person/opinion is crap. Same way you feel that by what I said was that by wiping, everyone who does is unprofessional. I don't understand why you dig at me most times? I don't say anything negative to you, or personally wrap you. If you took the remark above as personal, I can't help that. That's the way you come across to me, and make me look out to be. If anyone here on this board took what I said about the wipe being mechanically unprofessional, as THEY were unprofessional, then I apologize for not writing it clearly so you could understand that I was talking about the mechanic and not the person. I spoke with Jeff about it and it has been worked out.
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Yes, you are correct, so time would have been called.
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Mr. Umpire, et al, When the ball is out of play because of "time" being called, or for any other reason, the plate umpire is responsible for: A) All players are properly on the field, meaning they are in fair territory. Rules 4.03 B) The pitcher has the ball. Rule 4.03(B) 8.05(I) inverse C) The pitcher is on his pltching plate, ready to pitch in either the set or the windup. Rule 8.01 D) The batter is ready, in his batter's box. Rule 6.02, 6.03 E) Any runners are at their respective bases. Rule 7.01, 7.02 F) The umpire's partner(s) is(are) ready for play. G) No other anomolies are present on the field that would prevent the ball from being put back into play. Rule: applicable to given situation Those are the seven tasks that the plate umpire must collectively do before he can put the ball in play. If any are missing or somthing is amiss, he cannot legally put the ball back in play. Rule 5.11: After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the umpire calls "Play!" The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pticher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession. (We all know that the pitcher has to give the batter time to get set, and that batter usually has time to do so, covered by the plate umpire.) If, as the plate umpire, you (generically speaking), do not know where the ball is, for whatever reason, you need to find it. A look at the pitcher will undoubtedly show it in his hands, either behind his back, twisting it, or in his glove. If you can't see it, then ask for it. Use the excuse you want to check the ball. That is your right. No one can argue with you wanting to check it. You now know where the ball is, and you are good to go. But you cannot just assume the pitcher has the ball. You have to know it! Otherwise you are breaking rules and setting your crew up for a clusterbubble and a hard time. Know where the ball is at all times. If you had to take your eye off it for the substitution, or any other reason, that's fine, but find it again before doing anything else. Nothing can happen without the ball.
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Why are you adding to the OP's scenario? There was no meeting at the mound. Okay, I can see where you are getting six of seven he did. I'm looking at it as collectively. I should rephrase that and I did. But you all know that those are the things that the PU needs to do, and he didn't complete that check list. Regardless of the situation, time was out, and before you put the ball in play, you need to know where the ball is. There is no way getting arond that. The rules require it.
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Again, you twist my words to suit your needs. I said: "If the OP's "puts the ball in play" means that time was out then the plate umpire made a major mistake and the offensive coach will probably get dumped for arguing the umpire cost him a balk award." If the plate umpire puts the ball back into play and doesn't know where the ball is when he does it, that is a major mistake. When time is out, the plate umpire is responsible to make sure that all players are on the field properly, pitcher has the ball, pitcher is on his pitcher's plate, batter is set in the box, any base runners are at their bases, his partner(s) is/(are) ready to go, and there are no other anomolies on the field, before putting the ball back in play. That's seven things collectively he had to do, and he didn't do the key one: knowing where the ball was! (edited). That's not major??? Let's not forget the base umpire. He's got some major mistakes too! He totally disregarded, or missed, that his partner had called "Time" and "Play!", apparently knew that the trick play was on, allowed the pitcher to step on the pitchers plate without the ball, didn't call a balk, and improperly banged the runner out! The plate and base umpire's mistakes caused an unnecessary set of actions, and, possibly, unnecessary ejections, if the runner on second, or the offensive manager argued, and said the magic words/did the magic deeds, not to mention both making the umpiring crew look like the Keystone Cops.
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The thing is that you are calling some on here unprofessional because they use the wipe. That sures seems like a personal attack. No, I'm not saying the person who is using the "wipe" signal is unprofessional. I'm saying that the signal, and the act of "wiping" is unprofessional, and is not necessary. Wiping in of itself cannot make someone wholly unprofessional. Signals between umpires have been standardized with the professional schools teaching the accepted methods of signalling. I fully understand that before the schools existed it was an ad hoc situation that depended on the two umpires coming into agreement. Just like anything in life, you can stand still, or move up into the accredited practiced methods. If any umpire crew wants to wipe, then that is their perrogative. I'm simply stating a fact, that the wipe signal is not an accepted professional mechanic, and that it is, IMHO, totally unnecessary and I will not acknowledge it by wiping back. I have never said that anyone who wipes is unprofessional. Manny, with all due respect, you must understand that what you said insinuates unprofessionalism. That's why you received some backlash. No, you didn't say "IF YOU WIPE YOU ARE UNPROFESSIONAL" .............but that's how it reads/can read.... if that makes sense? Please keep in mind that most of the pros do not signal infield fly per the 'book' or the 'schools' either, ... is that unprofessional also? Just wondering The thing is that you are calling some on here unprofessional because they use the wipe. That sures seems like a personal attack. No, I'm not saying the person who is using the "wipe" signal is unprofessional. I'm saying that the signal, and the act of "wiping" is unprofessional, and is not necessary. Wiping in of itself cannot make someone wholly unprofessional. Signals between umpires have been standardized with the professional schools teaching the accepted methods of signalling. I fully understand that before the schools existed it was an ad hoc situation that depended on the two umpires coming into agreement. Just like anything in life, you can stand still, or move up into the accredited practiced methods. If any umpire crew wants to wipe, then that is their perrogative. I'm simply stating a fact, that the wipe signal is not an accepted professional mechanic, and that it is, IMHO, totally unnecessary and I will not acknowledge it by wiping back. I have never said that anyone who wipes is unprofessional. HUH?!? So can can be professional using unprofessional mechanics? Let him respond to my post Jax ... I think he got himself tongue-tied No I'm not tongue tied, and no I'm not going to respond here because quite frankly, if it isn't the world according to JAX then it's crap. I'm not going to open myself up to more insults by people who can't read, or understand English. I'll PM you with my response.
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Manny, I considered that as well since the OP did not specify that time was called. However, he clearly said that the plate umpire "puts the ball in play" which, to me, means that time was requested and granted. I thought that too Gray, but I wanted to know the difference and not assume anything. So I covered my butt. If the OP's "puts the ball in play" means that time was out then the plate umpire made a major mistake and the offensive coach will probably get dumped for arguing the umpire cost him a balk award.
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The thing is that you are calling some on here unprofessional because they use the wipe. That sures seems like a personal attack. No, I'm not saying the person who is using the "wipe" signal is unprofessional. I'm saying that the signal, and the act of "wiping" is unprofessional, and is not necessary. Wiping in of itself cannot make someone wholly unprofessional. Signals between umpires have been standardized with the professional schools teaching the accepted methods of signalling. I fully understand that before the schools existed it was an ad hoc situation that depended on the two umpires coming into agreement. Just like anything in life, you can stand still, or move up into the accredited practiced methods. If any umpire crew wants to wipe, then that is their perrogative. I'm simply stating a fact, that the wipe signal is not an accepted professional mechanic, and that it is, IMHO, totally unnecessary and I will not acknowledge it by wiping back. I have never said that anyone who wipes is unprofessional.
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Question: When the pitch hitter approached the plate, did the plate umpire call "Time" or did he leave the ball in play while he made the change? Was his motion actually "Play!" to put the ball back into live status, or did he simply indicate to the pitcher to pitch? This will be the deciding factor. If the plate umpire called "Time", then the plate umpire improperly put the ball back into "Play", and so the balk is negated, and you start over. If the plate umpire did not call "Time" while writting in the pinch hitter, then, motioned for the pitcher to pitch (not ball back in play), "That's a balk! Time! You, third base!" Either way one of the managers is going to argue, and I suspect someone here will ask "How can the plate umpire tell the pitcher to pitch if time wasn't out?" LOL. You can.
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Guys, I want you to know that I appreciate the kindness in your posts when you don't agree with my positon. I have no expectations of everyone agreeing with me. That's what these discussions are for. Total agreement all the time is not discussion, it's dictatorship. We all learn when we discuss different perspectives, or viewpoints on issues. My only expectation is that I be given the same courtesy that I show you: I may disagree, but I will never put you down, or personally attack you. I will always constructively explain why I disagree. Maybe the expectation to receive the same is a bit of a stretch, but please note that I'm a tough bird, and I can take jokes, and jabs, so don't be afraid to say something to me jokingly, or constructively. It's destructive behaviors I won't tolerate. A big THANKS to Jocko for busting my, well, you know... It's all good! Now, when he comes in, make sure y'all...
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I just purchased the three day ticket and the TASO Regional Clinic. The $85.00 rate sale for the clinic expires in less than 5 hours. After that, the price goes up. I did order the lunch for Saturday and Sunday, which was $7.00/day, $14.00 total. I'll be making my hotel reservations Mid-November. I am very happy to be going and look forward to meeting y'all there. Let's have some fun, knock the instructors socks off, and really show how Texan's get 'r' done!
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I understand this guy is your assignor and all, but the way this looks to everyone in attendance is that you are a dummy and, thank God, your wiser and more experienced partner was on hand to set you straight, overturn this obvious screw up and maintain the integrity of our national pastime. Curious, did the offensive HC come out after you changed your call or was he just as clueless as your partner and the defensive HC? Did you ever consider telling your partner after he "pulled you aside" that maybe he did not see what you saw, you were positive F1's actions constituted a balk, and as such the call stands? Routine ground ball to F6 who promptly throws the ball into the dugout (first play by inf). You correctly place B/R on second base. Your same partner pulls you aside and says the B/R gets third base on this play because by the time the ball trickled unassisted into the dugout, B/R had touched 1st base. As in your OP, you know he is wrong and explain it is a TOP award. As in the OP, he tells you that you are incorrect. Are you going to move the runner to 3rd because he has 20+ years experience and is your assignor? I know you are in a difficult position given who your partner is and I don't think anyone will dispute this. You said you felt like ##### the rest of the game, which I am guessing was due to you compromising what you know is right. Doing what is right is sometimes a difficult choice, and failing to do so can easily be rationalized by a variety of justifications. Others might disagree, but if you are right, you're right. Stick to your guns. This might just cause your experienced partner to crack open a rule book or two. Honestly, I don't know what else I could have done. I was emphatic about being correct in the call when he came out to talk to me. He just continued to say, "No, he can fake to 3rd after he steps off, followed by me saying, "That's not what I'm calling. I'm balking him for simulating a pitch." He looks at me and says, "He can do whatever he wants after he steps off, he's an infielder." At that point, it's starting to get heated. I decided it was better to walk away at that point before it ended up in a shouting match between umpires. I don't know about you guys, but I need to work as many games as possible. The economy sucks where I am and shifts have been cut at my job and some guys have been laid off. I made more umpiring this year than I did from my day job. This guy assigns the majority of my games. I worked between 8 and 12 games for this guy every weekend from March-Nov. I only had to work 4 games with him the whole season. So in my mind sticking to my guns and fighting this battle would have been cutting my nose off to spite my face. I was surprised that the OC didn't argue more emphatically. I honestly think he didn't know the rule; because he's the type to argue if he thinks he's getting screwed. In hindsight, I should have had a rule book in my pocket. I think I read on here that it's unprofessional to carry a rule book around in your pocket. Also, it comes back to the politics of the situation. Now, by pulling out the book and shoving it in his face on the field during the game am I making him look like a dummy who doesn't know the rules? You were right, and you took the high road. You are to be congratulated for that. Not only was your partner wrong, but he had a temporary lapse of umpiring ettiquette. Don't carry the rule book on you. If you have a bag and want to carry the rule book, then do so, keeping the bag in the general area you will be in. I know many won't agree with me, but it is better you delay the game and get the call right, then not, and lose a protest, or even so, respect. I'm curious, has your friend come back to you and said anything? Even an "I'm wrong" or something? If not, what have you done to rectify this travesty?
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I will support you on this, provided there is no flaming equally across the membership if the particular individual's answer(s) is/are incorrect, and/or you (generic) don't agree with them. Otherwise, I will not answer until I have verified the rule sources. I acknowledge I've made some mistakes in the past, but the inverse of the above statement has forced me now to include sources to back my positions to earn credibility. These questions are a great tool to use not only to test your present knowledge, but to expand it, and teach you how to manuever within the rule book, and see how rules flow together.
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The answer is: On the appeal, the BR is out. Since he missed first base and it results in the third out, no run shall score, and the balk is ignored. Rule 8.05(M): The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop. Rule 8.05 Approved Ruling: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule. Rule 4.09A: One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. BR is out on appeal, for missing 1st base, third out, NO RUN can score when third out is made at 1st, balk is ignored since both the batter and R2 advanced a minimum of one base. (Edit: 10/31/13 3:00 PM..After editing my initial post with my answer, and then looking at the other answers, noumpere answered the same and should be credited with correct answer first.)
