grayhawk

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules. The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed. At the point of your argument the ump thought the right thing -you where a rat--as time goes if you continue to do both (ump and coach) you will be bad at both--choose the one you love the most and do the best you can. I hear you and I really only plan to coach for another year or so. My son will be league age 12 for the spring season, and we are scheduled to play at CDP next August. I prefer to umpire and I am a much better umpire than coach anyway - and it's something I can do whether my son is playing or not. Coaching doesn't impact my ability to be a good umpire, but umpring affects my coaching. I won't make any comments about judgement calls, but when a rule is applied incorrectly, I seem to lose my patience. As Michael said, not being the manager makes it twice as hard because I can't call time and go out and talk to the umpires. Knowing the rules thoroughly is a big help in many situations as a coach, however. As an example, I was watching a game last weekend after we were finished, and with R1 and R2 with one out, the pitcher blew through his stop and the balk was called. He delivered the pitch and it was hit on the fly into short center and was not caught. Runners didn't really know what to do, and BR just stood about halfway between home and first. Ball is thrown into the infield and I am thinking - "throw it to first!" They don't and all runners, including the BR start walking to their base and reach safely. Play is relaxed and the umpires now call time. If the defense was smart, they would only have R2 and R3 with no pitch and the BR returned to bat with his previous count. Because the coaches didn't know what to do, the bases were now loaded. Excellent job by the umpires on that play.

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules. The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed.

My son was playing in a 12U travel tournament this weekend and I was one of the coaches. I have coached for a few years and have been umpiring for 3 and am making the transition from coach to umpire. So, I have to fight the urge to speak up when something happens on the field that I don't agree with. That said, I don't ever argue or say a word about judgement calls. Strike zone? Not a peep. Close plays at the bases? No way. (In fact, my son was called out at first on a banger that I thought he beat out and I didn't utter a word). So, here we are in the second inning and we are on defense. I am watching our pitcher and from out of nowhere, "That's a balk!" Our head coach politely asks what he did and the answer is, "He took signs off the rubber." Here is where I get myself in trouble. I retort, "That's not a balk!" PU and BU's reply, "Yes, it is!" I tell the head coach he should protest to get the TD involved and he decides against it. So I let it go (for now). Inning ends and I calmly walk up to BU (I know, I know) and tell him that taking signs off the rubber is not a balk because isn't listed in 8.05. He tells me to go back to the dugout and I tell him it's a "don't do that" and that it's a violation without a penalty and he tells me "One more word, and your gone." I was tempted to say "word" just to see what he would do, but I decide that I've taken it too far and to let it go. I apologized after the game to both umpires and that they did a great job (they did), but that it really isn't a balk and from one umpire to another, it's something that they should consider. They accept my apology and it's all good. OK, so mentioning something in the past is a no no, and something I wouldn't put up with when I am working. Hey, I'm human. For those of you who are still in the dual role of coach and umpire, how hard do you find it to bite your tongue when an umpire applies a rule incorrectly?

A couple things I would add, depending on where I am umpiring: Game start time for timed games. For instance, for USSSA, official start time is after lineups are exchanged at the plate meeting. I will also remind the coaches to have someone retrieve foul balls. Not something I ever have to say at a HS plate meeting, but for travel tournaments, I will. Also, in many tournaments, teams can bat 9 (with subs), 10 (using the EH) or bat everyone. This is something that needs to be established at the plate meeting. Depending on how they are batting, I will let them know the proper use of the courtesy runner. Should they know this? Of course. Does it speed things up during games? Yes, which is why I cover it.

3 years since I was pulled out of the bleachers to umpire my son's AA Fall Ball game. 889

I was PU for a 14U Pony game last weekend and before the game, one of the coaches for the visiting team introduced himself and said that he would be good. I wasn't sure why he said that, but I umpired a game for his team a few weeks prior and didn't remember any problems. Anyway, the game is going fine, but he just can't help himself in chiring about my zone. He says stuff "to his batter" that is obviously meant for me to hear. "That was high, you didn't want that one." "Don't swing at those low strikes." Anyway, it was on and off all game - nothing too bad, though I was getting to the point of giving him a "that's enough" near the end of the game, but didn't. Game ends and he tells me as I am walking off the field "You did a great job today" (and not in a sarcastic tone). I say thank you and head home. So that was a morning game and my son is playing in a game in the afternoon and guess who the PU is for my son's game? You guessed it, Mr. "I'll be good today." Before the game (and without yet recognizing him), I walk up to him to ask if he thinks we should spray the field with some more water. During this conversation, we both recognize each other and he tells me, "I know I made a lot of comments this morning, but you did a great job out there." He proceeds to work my son's game and basically stinks up the place. Strikes called in the dirt, great looking pitches balled, balks missed, etc. Seemed like most of it actually benefited our team, but it was bad for both sides. Of course, I never say a word (except to remind him that the opposing F1 needs to take his signs from the rubber), but it now made a lot of sense why he was complaining about my zone - because his is terrible! Anyway, just a funny case of the tables being turned. He should be thankful that I'm more of an umpire than a coach than vice versa, or I would have given him the business all game.

Interesting Dix. Who told you this? High School unit? USSSA? Someone else?

Because I believe it's a ticky-tac call to make. Had he broken his hands first and then stepped off, I would have called it. But I'm not going to get that particular if I see an amature pitcher break his hands while he's stepping off. Calling ticky-tac balks is a sure way to ruin a ball game. Would you call a balk on a pitcher you believed was taking signs while off the rubber *provided* he didn't quick pitch? I'd hope that you wouldn't, and this is similar - IMHO. Tim. I hope nobody would, because that's not a balk - not even a "technical" one. It falls under the category of "don't do that." I get your point. It was an apples to oranges comparison - my bad, I was looking for a quick parallel and that's the first thing that popped into this thick head of mine. But you'd be surprised how many times I've seen a balk called for it, or heard a coach complain that it should be called. I've even had coaches complain when an in contact pitcher looked at a coach to get a sign, because as we all know, only a catcher can give F1 a sign. Tim. I hear you, and figured that's what you were trying to say, so no worries. This happened in a game I was coaching that my son was playing in last weekend. 12U Pony game and the F1 for the opposing team kept taking his signs off the rubber. This prevented our runners from getting a lead and getting into a position to steal. PU was doing nothing about it so I asked him between innings if he could address it and he did. F1 then took his signs from the rubber and it was all good.

What did he say when you informed him that the ball is still in play after a foul tip?

Because I believe it's a ticky-tac call to make. Had he broken his hands first and then stepped off, I would have called it. But I'm not going to get that particular if I see an amature pitcher break his hands while he's stepping off. Calling ticky-tac balks is a sure way to ruin a ball game. Would you call a balk on a pitcher you believed was taking signs while off the rubber *provided* he didn't quick pitch? I'd hope that you wouldn't, and this is similar - IMHO. Tim. I hope nobody would, because that's not a balk - not even a "technical" one. It falls under the category of "don't do that."

I heart this thread. Seriously, between the bickering, there is some really good stuff that I have learned. Game management/dealing with conflict is my biggest weakness right now, so anything I can pick up in these areas is greatly appreciated.

All that sounds very reasonable. The way the case play was written, though, is puzzling. It specifically says that F1 "turns his body and shoulders." To me, that makes it sound like a pretty big turn. Regardless - I guess the key, in any OBR situation, is to defend your judgement by describing a called balk (when the shoulders turn) as "a feint to first" or (in the case where the shoulders turned, but not enough or not quick enough) "in my judgement, there was no feint to first." Don't even mention anything about the shoulders turning and you should, theoretically, stay out of trouble.

OK, for the record, I agree with everyone that A is legal and B results in a balk. However, I took the question from the WUM and here is what it says about the ruling: Ruling: In (a ) and (b ) the moves are legal. A pitcher turning his body or shoulders to look at a runner at a base is is not a balk on its own. In order to be a balk, the pitcher has to make a feint to first base. Can someone tell me under what circumstances turning one's shoulders towards R1 after coming set is NOT considered a feint? Is it based on how fast it happens? Are there other factors? When would you not call it a balk?

R1, one out, 1-1 count. (a) As the right-handed pitcher starts his stretch to the set position, he turns his body and shoulders to look at R1, and then comes stopped with his hands together. (b ) After coming stopped in the set position, he turns his body and shoulders to look at R1. Legal, or balk in (a ) and (b )?

If the team coming into the mound area get's in the way of attending to the player adequately, then I agree with you to keep them away. This is from a first aide point of view, not game management. But if they're coming to the mound to make sure their teammate and friend is going to be alright, and they don't interfere with the efforts to treat the player, then let it alone. We have no business telling a team what to do when time is out *provided* their actions aren't going to interfere with the game. It only takes a few seconds to get them back to their positions when the pitcher is ready to go again, and you're more than likely going to be giving him a few warm up pitches anyway. Don't pick up the smelly end of the stick here. Tim. Interesting that another injury situation happened this weekend where a couple of players came over to see how their teammate was doing. I am standing there with the coach and the injured player (F3 in this case) and F1 and F4 came over and a couple of others were headed there. After a couple of seconds, I just asked the players to give him some room and then the coach said the same. They went back to their positions and the player was removed from the game. The thing is, I could tell that in this case, the coach was there genuinely to attend to his player, whereas in my previous example, I could tell that the coach was going to use the injury to try to get a free trip. I guess you just have to read the situation and act accordingly.

Excellent

+1. In OBR, since any defensive player (F8 in this case) remained on the field, a proper live ball appeal should be granted. In Fed, the requirement is for a pitcher or infielder to remain in fair territory. Since F8 is not an infielder, the defense cannot make an appeal, In OBR, once the pitcher, catcher and all INFIELDERS have left the field, the appeal is denied. From 2011 OBR. 7.10: If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.

+1. In OBR, since any defensive player (F8 in this case) remained on the field, a proper live ball appeal should be granted. In Fed, the requirement is for a pitcher or infielder to remain in fair territory. Since F8 is not an infielder, the defense cannot make an appeal,

1. You have no business determining where the meeting should or should not be held. Maybe F1 needs to pitch a ball or two to see if he can continue. 2. Again, no business telling team what to do. You don't know the reason players are coming in. 3. Don't warn, just inform. As soon as strategy talk starts, "Skip, if you continue to talk strategy, I'm going to charge you a conference." 4. This should be PU's job. He is in charge of the battery. 1. Sounds good - I'll keep this in mind. 2. Don't agree. They have no business coming to the mound in an injury situation, and it is my business to keep the game going. If the coach takes exception and tells his players to come to the mound, then I would let him know that I will have to count it as a trip. 3. Semantics. Even your example could be considered a warning. "If you, then I'm..." If you are referring to tone, then I agree. Didn't mean it to sound like I take a negative tone. Just matter of fact. 4. That's what I thought too. Question is, if he doesn't monitor, then what do you do? Let it go, do it yourself, or try to discreetly communicate with him to get him to monitor?

Great stuff guys - thanks for the responses. I posted this thread because I faced this situation a few weeks ago in a tournament and and handled it the "wrong" way. Here's what happened: 13U AAU tournament. I am BU. F1 and F5 collide in foul territory going for a pop up between home and 3B. F5 is OK, but F1 is a little shaken up. DC asks for time and it's granted by PU. Coach helps him up and starts walking him back to the mound. PU stays at his position and I decide to meet them at the mound to monitor. As this is happening, the rest of the infield heads to the mound as well. Coach is asking F1 how he is doing, can he stay in the game, etc. F1 assures him that he is alright. Coach then tells him to throw strikes and then starts talking to F4 about the current situation with the base runners. As the meeting breaks up, I tell the coach that I have to charge him for a visit. He was pissed, but he brought an attitude even before the start of the game, so I didn't really think much of it at the time. After the game, I was thinking that I should have handled it differently. In retrospect, I think the following were the problems with this situation: 1. Keep the injury timout where the player went down. Monitor the meeting there and don't allow it to progress to the mound. 2. Don't allow the rest of the infield to head to the mound. 3. Warn the coach once the conversation moved away from the injury that further discussion would result in a charged conference. Not sure if PU or I should have monitored the injury timeout. I was in B at the time of the collision. Thoughts on this?

My WUM came in the mail yesterday. Looks to be well put together, and I really like Harry's Hints and the Historical background info. I also liked the additional definitions that were added.

The pitch over in the box was actually the third pitch. The called strike three was pitch number four of the AB. Note the 1-2 count as the pitch is going in. I wasn't commenting on the tracker. I was showing that the pitch hit the outside corner - look where the ball is on the freeze frame.

Not the best, but .......this is a glancing blow and the mask still 'rotates' ........ http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BzuVSn3YXY4 That happened in my last game - got all 3 of us!

As long as he then gains distance and direction. Of course, most of the time, it's in the form of a spin move.

This may be more of a game management topic, than a pure mechanic, so not sure if this is the right forum, but here goes. Injuries are a part of the game, and at least minor ones seem to happen pretty frequently. When there is an injury, and the coach asks to tend to his player, we allow time out and are supposed to monitor this conference to ensure that it's about the injury. Of course, coaches love to try to get a "free one" by making sure that his player is okay, but then starting to talk strategy. When this happens, do you: A. Not worry about it and let it go. B. Warn him if he starts coaching during an injury timout that it will count as a charged conference. C. Let him do his thing, and then inform him that you have to charge him for a conference. Just curous to know how you folks like to handle it.