run down-rules involved??

[dumbdumb]

Which rules are involved here?

 

 

http://wapc.mlb.com/play?content_id=30759829

[Texas Manny]

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 

7.01
A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.
Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 

7.02
In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 

Following runner entitled to a base:

 

7.03
Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 

A runner(s) is out when:

 

7.08
Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

[Jimurray]

Which rules are involved here?

 

 

Your browser does not support iframes.

Apparently, Maven's theory, since rejected by himself, might apply here. I don't have the rule ref right now but in OBR a batter is out when tagged off of his base. R3 still owned 3B. R1 owned 2B. He was tagged off HIS base. We all will have to relearn the rules. Gil, take over from here please.

[Jimurray]

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 

7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 

7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 

Following runner entitled to a base:

 

7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 

A runner(s) is out when:

 

7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP?

[Texas Manny]

 

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 

7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 

7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 

Following runner entitled to a base:

 

7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 

A runner(s) is out when:

 

7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP?

 

No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rules above are correct for the situation and are not being read too strictly. I answered strictly on what happened in the video to the question.

 

In your scenario, R2 would be out, because R3 has not given up legal entitlement yet. Legal entitlement can only be vacated when a runner is put out, or is forced to advance (7.01). Entitlement is also vacated when R3 scores. None of this in your scenario has happened. R2 is NOT entitled to 3rd base yet. If R3 has not yet touched HP before the out is registered on R2, then yes, this is a "time play" and no run should be scored.

 

I believe I am correct because of Rules 7.01, 7.02, and 7.03 and the PBUC Manual only reinforces 7.03. I am curious to hear what others would have to say.

 

There is nothing that I can find in the rules that state anything to contrary. I'm still looking though.

[Jimurray]

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP?

No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rule above are correct for the situation and are not being read to strictly.

Sorry, let's not call it a time play. If R3 does not reach home before R2 touches HP, will you call R2 out when he is touching 3B when tagged before R3 touches HP because R3 might want to come back and take HIS base?

[ohlradio]

No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rules above are correct for the situation and are not being read too strictly. I answered strictly on what happened in the video to the question.

 

 

Let me research your scenario.

 

 

So in your version, let's say it's 2-out - R3 is halfway between home and third while R1 is standing on 3rd base. You're saying that if the defence ignores R3 and tags R1 at any point before R3 touches the plate, he's out?

[Jimurray]

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP?

No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rules above are correct for the situation and are not being read too strictly. I answered strictly on what happened in the video to the question.

 

In your scenario, R2 would be out, because R3 has not given up legal entitlement yet. Legal entitlement can only be vacated when a runner is put out, or is forced to advance. Entitlement is also vacated when a runner scores. None of this has happened, so R2 is NOT entitled to 3rd base yet. If R3 has not yet touched HP before the out is registered on R2, then yes, this is a "time play" and no run should be scored.

 

I believe I am correct because of Rules 7.01, 7.02, and 7.03 and the PBUC Manual only reinforces 7.03. I am curious to hear what others would have to say.

 

There is nothing that I can find in the rules that state anything to contrary. I'm still looking though.

Perhaps you should look at Wendelstedts manual. He rewords "his" base to "the" or "a" base ( I can't remember which and too lazy too look it up right now). NCAA does not call it "his" base.

Do you realize the timing situations you might have to deal with if you strictly read this rule?

[Texas Manny]

 

 

 

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP? No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rule above are correct for the situation and are not being read to strictly.

Sorry, let's not call it a time play. If R3 does not reach home before R2 touches HP, will you call R2 out when he is touching 3B when tagged before R3 touches HP because R3 might want to come back and take HIS base?

 

But it is a "Time Play" since two are out, and neither R3 or R2 are being forced to advance. Tags are required.

 

See my answer above. R2 never had legal entitlement to 3rd base until R3 was put out, forced out (could not happen) or scored legally.

[Jimurray]

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP? No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rule above are correct for the situation and are not being read to strictly.

Sorry, let's not call it a time play. If R3 does not reach home before R2 touches HP, will you call R2 out when he is touching 3B when tagged before R3 touches HP because R3 might want to come back and take HIS base?

But it is a "Time Play" since two are out, and neither R3 or R2 are being forced to advance. Tags are required.

 

See my answer above. R2 never had legal entitlement to 3rd base until R3 was put out, forced out (could not happen) or scored legally.

So, if they tag R2 WHILE HE IS TOUCHING 3B, before R3 scores, R2 is out and no run scores?

[Texas Manny]

 

No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rules above are correct for the situation and are not being read too strictly. I answered strictly on what happened in the video to the question.

 

 

Let me research your scenario.

 

 

So in your version, let's say it's 2-out - R3 is halfway between home and third while R1 is standing on 3rd base. You're saying that if the defence ignores R3 and tags R1 at any point before R3 touches the plate, he's out?

 

R3 still has legal right to 3rd base. R3 has not been put out, forced (not applicable) or scored. R1 is out. How do you give a trail runner entitlement to a base, when the base entitlement is still legally held to a preceding runner?

 

 

 

 

 

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP? No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rule above are correct for the situation and are not being read to strictly.

Sorry, let's not call it a time play. If R3 does not reach home before R2 touches HP, will you call R2 out when he is touching 3B when tagged before R3 touches HP because R3 might want to come back and take HIS base? But it is a "Time Play" since two are out, and neither R3 or R2 are being forced to advance. Tags are required.

 

See my answer above. R2 never had legal entitlement to 3rd base until R3 was put out, forced out (could not happen) or scored legally.

So, if they tag R2 WHILE HE IS TOUCHING 3B, before R3 scores, R2 is out and no run scores?

 

Correct. Nothing in the rules says otherwise. R2 is not entitled legally to 3B yet. I know it sounds crazy, but I find nothing that contradicts it in the rules.

[ohlradio]

Yes, R3 has legal right to the third base, but he can only exercise that right if he is touching it. The way I see it, you could tag R1, and he's safe...then R3 comes back to the base and is touching it, now you touch R1 and he's out.

 

This may be simplifying it too much but I see it as follows:

 

You're only entitled to a base when you've legally advanced to it and are standing on it, the base doesn't mean a whole lot if you're not standing on it. You're no longer entitled to that base once you're not standing on it, or you're forced off of it.

[Texas Manny]

Yes, R3 has legal right to the third base, but he can only exercise that right if he is touching it. The way I see it, you could tag R1, and he's safe...then R3 comes back to the base and is touching it, now you touch R1 and he's out.

 

This may be simplifying it too much but I see it as follows:

 

You're only entitled to a base when you've legally advanced to it and are standing on it, the base doesn't mean a whole lot if you're not standing on it. You're no longer entitled to that base once you're not standing on it, or you're forced off of it.

Incorrect. R3 according to the rules holds legal right until he is either A) Put out; B) Forced off the bag; or C) Because he is on 3rd, scores, vacating his entitlement.

 

How can you declare him "SAFE"?

 

Rule 2.00 Definitions:

 

Safe is a declaration of the umpire that the runner is entitled to the base for which he was trying.

 

He's not safe. He's not entitled to the 3rd base bag. How can you say R3 gave up his entitlement when he left, then gets it back when he returns. That isn't consistent with the rules.

 

 

You are entitled to a base as long as you occupied it legally.  If a runner takes a lead off the base, he hasn't given up his right to entitlement. All he has done is placed himself in jeopardy of being put out. He doesn't relinquish entitlement until he is put out, forced, or because he is on 3rd base, scores.

 

Example:

 

R2. Takes a lead. Pitcher pitches. R2 stays put through 2 batters. His entitlement regardless of the lead, stays in force.

R2. Takes a lead. Pickoff. Gets back safely. Still entitled to 2nd base.

R2. Take lead, gets picked off. R2's entitlement is lifted because he was put out.

[Jimurray]

No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rules above are correct for the situation and are not being read too strictly. I answered strictly on what happened in the video to the question.

 

 

Let me research your scenario.

 

So in your version, let's say it's 2-out - R3 is halfway between home and third while R1 is standing on 3rd base. You're saying that if the defence ignores R3 and tags R1 at any point before R3 touches the plate, he's out?

R3 still has legal right to 3rd base. R3 has not been put out, forced (not applicable) or scored. R1 is out. How do you give a trail runner entitlement to a base, when the base entitlement is still legally held to a preceding runner?

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP? No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rule above are correct for the situation and are not being read to strictly.

Sorry, let's not call it a time play. If R3 does not reach home before R2 touches HP, will you call R2 out when he is touching 3B when tagged before R3 touches HP because R3 might want to come back and take HIS base? But it is a "Time Play" since two are out, and neither R3 or R2 are being forced to advance. Tags are required.

 

See my answer above. R2 never had legal entitlement to 3rd base until R3 was put out, forced out (could not happen) or scored legally. So, if they tag R2 WHILE HE IS TOUCHING 3B, before R3 scores, R2 is out and no run scores?

Correct. Nothing in the rules says otherwise. R2 is not entitled legally to 3B yet. I know it sounds crazy, but I find nothing that contradicts it in the rules.

The rules have errors. NCAA does not call it HIS base. Wendelstedt does not call it HIS base. When a runner slides under the tag at 3B and you are the calling umpire do you look to see if the runner that owned 3B has owned HP yet before you decide on safe or out?

[ohlradio]

The rules have errors. NCAA does not call it HIS base. Wendelstedt does not call it HIS base. When a runner slides under the tag at 3B and you are the calling umpire do you look to see if the runner that owned 3B has owned HP yet before you decide on safe or out?

 

 

I agree with you...

 

Similar to this one....R1/R2, 0 out.

 

Batter hits the ball directly to the first baseman, he steps on first to take off the force and throws to second to try and get R1. R1 beats the throw, and is standing on 2nd base. BUT Bengi Molina is R2 and has not reached 3rd base yet, so you're now going to call R1 out because he's not allowed to be on 2nd base yet?

 

I don't think so!

 

Another example,R1/R2, double-steal, catcher throws to second to try and get the trailing runner. I don't care if R2 has reached third base yet or not. That is irrelevant. The entitlement situation only comes into play if both runners end up on the same base.

[Texas Manny]

Rule 7.01 says a runner is entitled to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out or forced.

 

I would say yes,  I would look to see.

 

I just can't see in the rules where R1 or R2 would have legal entitlement to the bag. If you call him "safe" you are aiding the offense, because you allow the run to score. If you call him "out" you have every legal standing to.

[Jimurray]

The rules have errors. NCAA does not call it HIS base. Wendelstedt does not call it HIS base. When a runner slides under the tag at 3B and you are the calling umpire do you look to see if the runner that owned 3B has owned HP yet before you decide on safe or out?

 

I agree with you...

 

Similar to this one....R1/R2, 0 out.

 

Batter hits the ball directly to the first baseman, he steps on first to take off the force and throws to second to try and get R1. R1 beats the throw, and is standing on 2nd base. BUT Bengi Molina is R2 and has not reached 3rd base yet, so you're now going to call R1 out because he's not allowed to be on 2nd base yet?

 

I don't think so!

Before thinking about the practical ramifications to a strict interp of the written rules one of the better rules guys on this site almost came to the same conclusion. Let's put it to bed and let Manny ponder. Besides everybody is watching KC - PHL.

[dumbdumb]

Wow--I have 3 possible scenario's that can happen on a play like this.

 

1. R3 and R1 on the base at the same time. This does happen in the video, but neither is being tagged by the fielder while both are "on" the base at the same time. If they were both being tagged while on the base at the same time, since R3 is entitled to the base R1 would be out.

2. R3 on the base and R1 not on the base. If R3 is on the base and tagged it is nothing, if R1 is tagged while he is off the base while R3 is on the base R1 is out.

3. R3 off the base and R1 on the base. Even though R1 is not entitled to the base, he is protected by the base when R3 is not on the base. Therefor only R3 is out in the video since he is tagged while off the base, while R1 is on the base.

 

But what do I know.

[umpstu]

 

 

 

 

 

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 Following runner entitled to a base:

 7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 A runner(s) is out when:

 7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

You are too strictly reading the rule. Do we have a time play when, with R3, R2, R2 slides into 3B and is tagged while touching while R3 has not yet touched HP? No one touched home plate. R3 got chased back to 3rd. So no time play exists. The rule above are correct for the situation and are not being read to strictly.

Sorry, let's not call it a time play. If R3 does not reach home before R2 touches HP, will you call R2 out when he is touching 3B when tagged before R3 touches HP because R3 might want to come back and take HIS base? But it is a "Time Play" since two are out, and neither R3 or R2 are being forced to advance. Tags are required.

 

See my answer above. R2 never had legal entitlement to 3rd base until R3 was put out, forced out (could not happen) or scored legally.

So, if they tag R2 WHILE HE IS TOUCHING 3B, before R3 scores, R2 is out and no run scores?

 

Here, here. I don't have that trailing out on this. When they tagged him he was indeed on third. But, the other runner was not occupying that base at the time of the tag. Nobody else was occupying that bag. Saying that he was out because the other runner had yet to touch home and therefor had not given up entitlement isn't correct. If that were the case then what would stop the defensive team from keeping the lead runner in a rundown, throwing to third and tagging the trail runner, even though he is on the base, and then continuing with the rundown? There weren't two people occupying that base. Just my opinion.

[umpstu]

 

The rules have errors. NCAA does not call it HIS base. Wendelstedt does not call it HIS base. When a runner slides under the tag at 3B and you are the calling umpire do you look to see if the runner that owned 3B has owned HP yet before you decide on safe or out?

 

 

I agree with you...

 

Similar to this one....R1/R2, 0 out.

 

Batter hits the ball directly to the first baseman, he steps on first to take off the force and throws to second to try and get R1. R1 beats the throw, and is standing on 2nd base. BUT Bengi Molina is R2 and has not reached 3rd base yet, so you're now going to call R1 out because he's not allowed to be on 2nd base yet?

 

I don't think so!

 

Another example,R1/R2, double-steal, catcher throws to second to try and get the trailing runner. I don't care if R2 has reached third base yet or not. That is irrelevant. The entitlement situation only comes into play if both runners end up on the same base.

 

That is exactly what I have. Hadn't read this before posting. Good job.

[Texas Manny]

 

The rules have errors. NCAA does not call it HIS base. Wendelstedt does not call it HIS base. When a runner slides under the tag at 3B and you are the calling umpire do you look to see if the runner that owned 3B has owned HP yet before you decide on safe or out?

 

 

I agree with you...

 

Similar to this one....R1/R2, 0 out.

 

Batter hits the ball directly to the first baseman, he steps on first to take off the force and throws to second to try and get R1. R1 beats the throw, and is standing on 2nd base. BUT Bengi Molina is R2 and has not reached 3rd base yet, so you're now going to call R1 out because he's not allowed to be on 2nd base yet?

 

I don't think so!

 

Another example,R1/R2, double-steal, catcher throws to second to try and get the trailing runner. I don't care if R2 has reached third base yet or not. That is irrelevant. The entitlement situation only comes into play if both runners end up on the same base.

 

Let me correct myself:

 

I understand your points. I would not call him "out" at 2nd on the force relieve because he reached safely. I would call him "safe". If R2 got caught in a run down and got back to 2nd base safely, then R1 is back in jeopardy and if tagged, would be out. It would require a second call, and probably clarification by the umpire.

 

The same would apply with R3 and R2 and R2 advances to third, is tagged on third. I would call him "safe". If R3 is caught in a run down and gets back to 3rd base safely, he is entitled to the bag, and R2 is then back in jeopardy and if tagged, would be out. It would require a second call, and probably clarification by the umpire.

[umpstu]

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 

7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 

7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 

Following runner entitled to a base:

 

7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 

A runner(s) is out when:

 

7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

If the lead runner is not on the base, how can the trailing runner be called out when he is standing on a base? Another note, have you go to try out your Force 3?

[Texas Manny]

 

Runners legal acquiring of a base: 7.01 and 7.02

 

7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

 

7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

 

Following runner entitled to a base:

 

7.03

Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

 

A runner(s) is out when:

 

7.08

Any runner is out when --

 

C: He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.

APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpires judgment, he touches or occupies the point marked by the dislodged bag.

 

 

Because the original runner on 3rd, R3, returned to his base at the TOP, that meant that R2 did not have legal right to the base. If the fielder tagged R3 first, then the base is now open and R2 would have been legally entitled to the base. However, since R2 was tagged first, even though on 3rd base, he is out because he was not entitled to that base. Then R3 was tagged off base for a legal put out under rule 7.08c.

If the lead runner is not on the base, how can the trailing runner be called out when he is standing on a base? Another note, have you go to try out your Force 3?

 

Because R2 is not entitled to the base. R3 is. R2 is out even if on the base, and R3 is out because he was off his base. The tags were in proper order. No I have not tried out my Force 3 yet. It won't be christened until umpire school.

[Jimurray]

Wow--I have 3 possible scenario's that can happen on a play like this.

 

1. R3 and R1 on the base at the same time. This does happen in the video, but neither is being tagged by the fielder while both are "on" the base at the same time. If they were both being tagged while on the base at the same time, since R3 is entitled to the base R1 would be out.

2. R3 on the base and R1 not on the base. If R3 is on the base and tagged it is nothing, if R1 is tagged while he is off the base while R3 is on the base R1 is out.

3. R3 off the base and R1 on the base. Even though R1 is not entitled to the base, he is protected by the base when R3 is not on the base. Therefor only R3 is out in the video since he is tagged while off the base, while R1 is on the base.

 

But what do I know.

I came back after the football game was over. In 3. It's not literally the base, it's his base. Which according to Manny, R3 still owns the base. A problem with the rules if you read them strictly.

[Texas Manny]

Dang, this gave me a headache. So much to think about and straighten out. Sorry y'all.