3rd Out Force or No?

[Chop On]

Setup (I tried to look into the rules but couldn't seem to put things together in my head and/or search correctly):

9U League Game

USSSA Rules

2 Outs, runners on 2nd & 3rd

Batter hits a ground ball that gets bobbled and beats the throw to 1st.  After going through the 1st base bag, the runner happens to turn to the left to return to the base.  Didn't appear to be a move to go to 2nd, but that's a different discussion that's been had a few thousand times.  Umpire deemed it a move to 2nd, fine, and the batter was tagged out.  Prior to the batter being tagged out, the runner from home crosses home plate.  I understand that the run would not count for a force out.

So, my question is this:  Is it still a force out after the runner runs through first base safely?  And if it is not a force out, the run should have counted since the runner crossed home plate prior to the out being made, correct?

The closest thing I could seem to find was section 7.08(e):  ...The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which that runner is forced to advance, and if oversliding or overrunning the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and the runner can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which the runner is forced.

Does first base fall under "touching the next base" and "base last occupied" since the batter can't go back to home plate?  In that case, I can see the force being reinstated and no run scores.

 

Thanks for your help.  It's probably a simple answer, and I'm over-thinking it.

Jason

[Jay R.]

As described, this is not a force play. If the batter-runner legally touched first and is deemed to have made a move toward second, it's no different then if he had rounded the base and been tagged between first and second. Since it's not a force, the run should count, assuming that the umpire agrees that the runner crossed home before the tag occurred.

If he had missed first base as he ran by, he is subject to being out on appeal for missing the base. You could appeal this even after the tag and, if sustained, the run would not count because the batter-runner would have been out before legally acquiring first base. (This is not technically a force play, fwiw; you can peruse the archives for past discussions on that point.)

Your rule citation is for a runner who retreats across bases, not simply retreating toward their legally acquired base. For example: A runner on first runs on the pitch, a fly ball is hit, and the runner rounds second before realizing he will likely need to tag up. If he runs in reverse order past second base toward first, and then the ball drops, the force play at second is still on even though the runner has touched second on the play. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

I'd like to simplify this, please...

@Chop On, if the batter/runner is putout either by force OR a tag BEFORE acquiring 1B, the run doesn't count regardless of when it crossed. In your case play, as @Jay R. illustrated, since the out was made AFTER the batter/runner acquired 1B and the out was made AFTER the runner crossed the plate...the run scores and the inning is over.

A few months ago, I had a batter hit a fair rope into the OF with R2 and R3. As he turned to run to 1B...he went down with an injury. R3 crosses the plate, R2 crosses the plate...and then the ball was thrown in from the OF to the plate and F2 puts a tag on the batter/runner. He is out and those runs did NOT score. Coach went nuts, referencing it wasn't a force putout...blah, blah, blah. I didn't write the rules. I just enforce them. Runs do not score...by rule.

~Dawg

[Velho]

3 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I'd like to simplify this, please...

@Chop On, if the batter/runner is putout either by force OR a tag BEFORE acquiring 1B, the run doesn't count regardless of when it crossed. In your case play, as @Jay R. illustrated, since the out was made AFTER the batter/runner acquired 1B and the out was made AFTER the runner crossed the plate...the run scores and the inning is over.

Sorry to de-simply slightly but need to clarify that, if batter/runner is the third out on appeal for missing first base even though they went past it, no runs score regardless of timing.

[SeeingEyeDog]

10 minutes ago, Velho said:

Sorry to de-simply slightly but need to clarify that, if batter/runner is the third out on appeal for missing first base even though they went past it, no runs score regardless of timing.

Lol...we can never quite simplify can we? It's like trying to explain hockey's icing rule...in one sentence.

~Dawg

[maven]

12 minutes ago, Velho said:

Sorry to de-simply slightly but need to clarify that, if batter/runner is the third out on appeal for missing first base even though they went past it, no runs score regardless of timing.

This post, while correct, is not needed, as it is irrelevant to the OP. A complete (and simpler) answer to the OP need not mention appeal plays (or any other kind of play).

The way to remember the scoring rule is that the default is a time play: did the run score before the 3rd out? In the OP, yes, so it counts. There are 3 exceptions to this default, and none of them applies here, including the exception for the BR making the 3rd out before legally touching 1B.

This is, BTW, exactly how the rule is written in OBR, 5.08(a) + EXCEPTION.

[Velho]

12 minutes ago, maven said:

This post, while correct, is not needed, as it is irrelevant to the OP. A complete (and simpler) answer to the OP need not mention appeal plays (or any other kind of play).

@Jay R. had already answered the OP in his first paragraph. As normal, since many people only consume the site and never post or re-post (OP was a first timer), additional context and exposition were given. This included a generalized statement that needed a slight clarification. After all, these posts live in perpetuity.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.

[maven]

Yes, I'm aware of thread drift. It's a primary reason I stop reading threads after 6–8 posts.

[Chop On]

Thank you for the responses.  That cleared things up.