Obstruction on runner + batter interference?

[BDad]

A LL manager texted me to explain a situation to him, and I quickly realized I don't have enough info without seeing the play. But it got me thinking. R2 attempts to steal 3rd, throw by F2 hits the bat and deflects but stays in play. According to the manager, PU killed the ball, conferred with BU, then awarded the runner home. I'm *guessing* they must have had obstruction of R2, and the throw hitting the bat was nothing or irrelevant (like I said, I wasn't there). So here's my questions. Let's go with LL Majors rules, but I'm interested if Fed or OBR is different. R2, less than 2 out, 0 balls, 0 strikes on the batter.

1. Say F5 or F6 obstructed R2 before he acquired 3B, and suppose PU had nothing on the throw hitting the bat (the batter can't vaporize). Since the throw never reached F5 (no play on R2), would this be type 2 obstruction (delayed dead ball)? In that case, I would have R2 reaches 3B, play on as if no obstruction occurred. Or maybe it depends on where the throw deflected to--the umpires might have judged that the runner would have reached home after the deflected throw if not for the obstruction?

2. Say F5 or F6 obstructed R2 before he acquired 3B, but now also PU has batter interference. Is this a timing issue? Delayed dead ball and make the appropriate base award if the obstruction happened first, or call the batter out and put R2 back on 2B if the interference happened first?

[maven]

The penalty for OBS requires nullifying the advantage gained by the defense's illegal action. So if the calling umpire judges that R2 would have scored on the play without the OBS, then the proper award would be HP.

Batter INT is enforced if the first throw by F2 fails to retire a runner. I would ignore the OBS if it were the result of batter INT. With less than 2 out, the batter is out, R2 returns.

[noumpere]

11 hours ago, BDad said:

A LL manager texted me to explain a situation to him, and I quickly realized I don't have enough info without seeing the play. But it got me thinking. R2 attempts to steal 3rd, throw by F2 hits the bat and deflects but stays in play. According to the manager, PU killed the ball, conferred with BU, then awarded the runner home. I'm *guessing* they must have had obstruction of R2, and the throw hitting the bat was nothing or irrelevant (like I said, I wasn't there).

Isn't awarding home the correct ruling on this play?  Ball thrown OOP, award two bases TOP (absent any BI or similar)

[maven]

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Isn't awarding home the correct ruling on this play?  Ball thrown OOP, award two bases TOP (absent any BI or similar)

Deflected ball stayed in play.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Deflected ball stayed in play.

RIF -- I read "deflected OOP" -- my mistake.

 

So, on the OP -- another possibility (besides OBS) is that PU *thought* the ball hitting the bat made it a dead ball and killed it; then realized his mistake (perhaps after conferring with BU) and corrected the mistake by awarding "what would have happened" -- R2 to home.  Same result as OBS, but without the OBS.

[BDad]

15 hours ago, maven said:

The penalty for OBS requires nullifying the advantage gained by the defense's illegal action. So if the calling umpire judges that R2 would have scored on the play without the OBS, then the proper award would be HP.

Batter INT is enforced if the first throw by F2 fails to retire a runner. I would ignore the OBS if it were the result of batter INT. With less than 2 out, the batter is out, R2 returns.

Thanks! I see what you're saying about awarding the base that would nullify the OBS, either 3B or HP depending on judgment of where R2 would have ended up if there were no OBS.

On the INT, what if the OBS by F5 weren't a result of the batter INT but a coincidentally separate event? Like if R2 sees the ball deflected, decides he's going to round third or try to score, and has to change path into third to avoid F5. Or doesn't see the ball deflected and slides into third with F5 blocking the base. Enforce the INT if it occurred before the OBS?

[BDad]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

So, on the OP -- another possibility (besides OBS) is that PU *thought* the ball hitting the bat made it a dead ball and killed it; then realized his mistake (perhaps after conferring with BU) and corrected the mistake by awarding "what would have happened" -- R2 to home.  Same result as OBS, but without the OBS.

Good point--I hadn't considered that it could have been fixing a goof up. 'Cause we're all perfect and getting better all the time... 🙃

[maven]

8 hours ago, BDad said:

On the INT, what if the OBS by F5 weren't a result of the batter INT but a coincidentally separate event?

It can't be separate. The batter INT hindered the defense's play on R2, so his advance, including further advance, is tainted.

Once the batter INT occurs, I'm sending R2 back.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.43, p. 128):

“If the batter interferes with the catcher’s throw to retire a runner by stepping out of the batter’s box, interference shall be called on the batter under Official Baseball Rule 6.03(a)(3).

“However, if the batter is standing in the batter’s box and he or his bat is struck by the catcher’s throw back to the pitcher (or throw in attempting to retire a runner) and, in the umpire’s judgment there is no intent on the part of the batter to interfere with the throw, consider the ball alive and in play.”

[BDad]

Great, thanks for helping me think this through. @maven I think we're on the same page. Once PU judges that INT has occurred, kill the ball, call the batter out, send R2 back. Anything that happened after the ball is dead on the INT doesn't matter any more.

@Senor Azul thanks for clarifying. I think that's why I was thinking of this as two situations--one in which (in the umpire's judgement) the batter interfered, and one in which the batter did not interfere and therefore the ball is still live. If there's no INT, the call the play as it unfolds (OBS or not as the case may be).

[maven]

11 hours ago, BDad said:

Once PU judges that INT has occurred, kill the ball, call the batter out, send R2 back.

We would kill it quickly in your play because the ball was deflected. So we'd know immediately that F2's first throw will not retire R2.

But in general, with less than 2 outs, we have to let the defense play on the runner before killing it.

[BDad]

Yeah, in general I should let the throw happen because if the defense gets the out on R2, the out stands and the batter is not out. Thanks!