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Dogging it?


SnareDrum

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I saw a couple of other "First of the Year"s so why not...

13U, OBR, R3, short pitcher, tall batter, I'm BU. Batter is waaaay up in the box so naturally I'm going to be little more aware of his feet. It's the third game of the night, so the batters box lines are long gone, but the fabric markers for the outline are blatantly visible and sticking up 2-3 inches. If a batter asks, I'll draw a line or two or I'll just tell him it's the black markers (every now and then during the game I may brush them in a little.) They nod and set themselves accordingly. Also during the game, I keep the area around the plate pretty clean so I can easily spot, and show coaches, offending cleat marks. This batter's front foot was almost on where the front line would be.

On the second pitch, the batter absolutely crushes one to deep center. At the *ping*, I glanced down and sure enough he had really stepped into it. As he took off and R3 came home, I stepped forward and looked down. Since there were no lines, I always want to be sure and have something blatantly obvious, hopefully with a cleat mark. He had stepped over at contact by a good three inches.

As the ball bounced off the fence, I raised my hands and called out, "Dead Ball! Batter's Out!" and signaled the out as I stepped forward in front of the plate. Nobody heard me. Fans are screaming (they're right ON the fence), Coaches hollering, Parents are shouting, typical bedlam. I stood there in front of the plate and repeated the words and action, but now I couldn't even hear myself. So I stood there with my hands up and waited. As the BR rounded 3B and came home, I made the call again. I can easily see how some could perceive that I waited until he got all the way around to make the call, since nobody was watching me or heard me until he got home (later, one of the OC's said he saw me, but he couldn't hear a word). My partner had heard me somehow and was already heading back to "C".

As things quieted down, I called out, "I have an out! Batters out for stepping out of the box on contact! Balls dead, runner go back to 3rd, please!" I was prepared to show the cleat mark as their coach yells at me from their dugout door: "How come you waited until he got home to call that?!" I said, "I didn't. I made the call as soon as saw where his foot landed, but..." He cut me off with: "Well, if you (uh-oh... ejection sequence start) hadn't been doggin' it maybe you..." I cut HIM off with: "YOU'RE GONE!"

He left without a word. Later I saw him peeking from behind the LF foul pole, but the Complex Supervisor took care of that. Side note: Not only did that foot cost him a HR, it was his son meditation.gifand he had been coached to move way up in the box because of the short pitcher. Coach called my Chief the next morning and said he deserved it and he apologized. We'll see how it all plays out when I have his team next week, but to me, it'll be new game and water under the bridge. If he wants to quietly discuss what I saw and what was going on, we'll see...

I don't think there's much more I could've done short of chasing the BR or something. The stands are right on top of the fences and they were packed with both sides were at full volume. Of course, the only one who's watching the PU are other umpires...

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Roger K.,

That's just awful, all around.

JM

And he is serious.

You go looking for the foot out of the box call? :question1: Why make trouble where none exists? And, you make sure you can see it clearly by cleaning the area around the plate? That is being OOO.

Also, how do you know he made the contact with his foot on the ground? It could have been in the air at point of contact. You don't know if you were doing your job of looking at the pitch unless it was down and over/near his foot at the time of contact.

The purpose of the rule is to prevent a drag bunt hitter from getting an extra step or 2 to 1B before any defensive player can get the ball. Or, reaching the pitch on an IBB or something like it. Not for the purpose of someone hitting a HR on a regular pitch. That is not the "Spirit of the rule".

I don't want it to sound like we don't enforce certain rules. But, we should enforce the "Spirit of the rule" more than the "Letter of the rule". He was well within the bounds of the spirit. Not a good showing at all. That is just looking for trouble. I'm glad it is during your games and not mine. I'll gladly leave that one alone.

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I saw a couple of other "First of the Year"s so why not...

13U, OBR, R3, short pitcher, tall batter, I'm BU. Batter is waaaay up in the box so naturally I'm going to be little more aware of his feet. It's the third game of the night, so the batters box lines are long gone, but the fabric markers for the outline are blatantly visible and sticking up 2-3 inches. If a batter asks, I'll draw a line or two or I'll just tell him it's the black markers (every now and then during the game I may brush them in a little.) They nod and set themselves accordingly. Also during the game, I keep the area around the plate pretty clean so I can easily spot, and show coaches, offending cleat marks. This batter's front foot was almost on where the front line would be.

Why are are you watching for out of the box as BU or cleaning the Plate area?

Did you mean to say PU? :rolleyes:

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I think you were grabbing the $hitty end of the Stick when you called this one. When there are no lines you have to be very lenient with this one.

If you are tracking the ball properly it would be hard to see the contact of the ball with the bat and also the foot with the ground.

Keeping the area around the plate clean? Really??

Try not to look for things and be Nit-Picky. That's what Grabbing the $hitty end of the Stick means.

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No particular order of response here:

(yes I meant PU)

Spirit vs. Letter of the rules, yes there are plenty. But I can't anticipate or predict bunts. In both the OBR and FED, the rules are quite specific as to the infraction and the penalty and there's not a word 1about bunt. What if the DC had spotted this and came trotting out? "Ooops sorry coach. You caught me. Batters out!" ?

The low inside pitch, the ball on bat, and the foot plant were all in my direct immediate peripheral vision. An outside pitch and I probably don't see it. The foot was not only completely out and on the ground at contact it was WAY completely out. So, I let it go over and over and over week after week... I'll just let the batters step wherever they want... unless they bunt?

To clarify, I don't clean the area around the plate. I will give a brush over with my foot to cover up some of the cleat marks and flatten a dirt clod or two, maybe toss a rock. If a batter does make that step, I like to have that reference point as pointing it out to a coach usually ends the discussion right there.

I said "aware", not looking for it. How can you put the ball in play if you don't check to see if the batters feet are in the box? And if one foot is on the border, yes I'm going to be very aware of it. ("Hey Blue, isn't he out of the box?" No hes out of it, but there's no line so he's good!)

I don't go "looking" for any call. I attempt to make myself aware of all possibilities, and I make the calls that I see that I know are right. That, I believe, was the case here.

I respect all of the replies and input. But lets say I let it go, and now the batters on this team have caught on that they can set up in the front of the box on short, low-ball pitchers and step as far and wherever they want because there are no lines left I'm being lenient. Then another team starts stepping in front of plate on contact because the pitcher has mean tailing slider, but there are no lines and I'm not calling it.

So I guess my question/post would be this: It's late in the evening or afternoon after several games on the same field. The infield foul lines and batters boxes are obliterated. The boxes are marked clearly with the fabric markers the grounds crew uses to create the lines that are now gone. Batter hits a base hit but steps clearly, and quite far, out of the box forward or directly in front of the plate on contact with the ball, and YOU SEE IT and don't call it because you don't want to be nit-picky. The DC,and a few fans, questions why the "no call". What do you say? How far does he have to step out before a call, or is it always a no-call since he wasn't bunting or trying for a HBP? He fakes bunt and pulls back but he's in front of the plate, so it's no call becasue no bunt? How far is too far, if you bother to call it all? Call or no-call, I better be ready to explain to a coach or chief or evaluator why. Not wanting to make trouble or be "nit-picky" may not suffice.

What if it's a foul ball on the infield and there's no line and it stops three-four inches to the left of where the line was?

So I see something that's an obvious infraction and I take it on myself to interpret the rules and Letter vs. Spirit and decide for myself to go with a no-call because I don't want to make trouble... ? I was taught to make the call to the best of my ability and if there's trouble, oh well. I'm not looking to incite riots and TRYING for outs, infractions, violations, etc. But if I see it, I call it. Perhaps a new thread could be: "Rules violations and infractions that I ignore because I don't want to make trouble."

Yes, I think that in the plate pre-games, I'm going to mention that the lines will or have disappeared and those big black things you see sticking up will have to suffice. If your batter needs a line drawn, I'll do so.

ALL input welcome. I see you're concerned and so am I.

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I'm not going to condemn you for making the call, you saw it and made it, good ,but one thing I would like to point out is this. If you didn't make the call and say the DC came out saying " Come on Blue, he stepped way out." and begins pointing at SOME footprint in the dirt. What would you do ? I would toss him right there for showing me up. Now, It may not be a good practice to do something ( show a coach a footprint) that you would eject a coach for. Again not trying to condemn just pointing out something you may want to think about.

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Not trying to judge you but your actions and response sound like you haven't been working very long. It makes you sound like "see I know the rules". Which means you just don't get it. What the posters are telling you is how to umpire the game not officiate. Some of the things we call is based on what is "expected". Remember you were taught 1st priority is ball/strike. I don't trust my peripheral vision on something like this. And no it dosen't specifcally mention bunt. Mr. Umpire was giving you the history behind the rule. A lot of the things you will read here is how to survive in an umpiring career. I keep the plate area clean also. I keep the area in front of the plate, so there is less of a chance of gettting a 50' curve in the grill, smooth. And a brush width on each side of the plate. That's it.

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Ease up fellas.

This a typical case of a greenhorn thinking he has to umpire with one eye on the play and one eye on the rule book. I did it (probably still do from time to time), you did it....you outgrow it with experience.

I think we'll all agree Rog was out-of-line here, but he'll learn in time.

Rog - let the game to come to you. Don't be like Bob Davidson and look to get on the hilights every night by making a difference in the game.

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First, Thanks Guys. I think. But no not new, and no, not a greenhorn. But if I couldn't take critiques from peers, I would've logged out long ago.

I understand that the rules are only a part of the game. They're necessary and well thought out, and written and tweaked over decades, and we all must take pretty much the same tests on those rules every year. I believe there is no harder sport to officiate (just the term, settle down) OR play. It's practically the only sport where the all-around knowledge isn't actually "taught", but rather, handed down in a way. There's also not a better sport on the planet. But the rules are there for integrity, spirit, fairness, common sense, etc. Not knowing them is asking for a disaster.That said... As PU, yes the ball/strike is the first responsibility.

That low inside pitch to a batter in the front of the box. The ball never reached the front of the plate, but in the slot as my eyes tracked it, then in that flash where bat met ball, in the edge of that frame I clearly saw where his foot was (perhaps periphery was the wrong word). I can't say whether it was a strike because the ball never entered the zone of course, but it would've been close. There is no time to intentionally look down and check where a foot is or was at contact if I'm doing my job, but in this case I saw it.

In this sport unlike some others, almost every call happens in that split second. But I have learned to not base that decision on what the possible response might be or because I don't want trouble.The consensus is overwhelmingly "You blew that one. You shoulda' let it go and moved on." It seems to be about discretion (?) and Spirit. Looking at some of the respond-ers, OK, I'll agree. I was told once that "You are not bigger than the game. You're just the most important part of it." There's much more to what he said, but I'll wait. It was not my intent to be a Davidson or to ruin anyone's night or to show off that "See I know rules." I saw it. I called it. Shoulda' let it go.

So it's post-game and we're in the changing room and you say, "Rog, great game back there. You were dead on. But I need to talk to you about that batters box call..."

(btw, YES, if a coach comes out pointing to any footprint, gone)

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Not trying to be to hard. Just remember what my mentors would say to me when I was being "schooled"!

Indeed. I'm going to be seeing one of my early mentors this weekend. Almost 80 and still working. He'll probably hit me with a shovel.

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He fakes bunt and pulls back but he's in front of the plate, so it's no call becasue no bunt?

It's a ball or strike.

So it's post-game and we're in the changing room and you say, "Rog, great game back there. You were dead on. But I need to talk to you about that batters box call..."

You get a changing room? GEEZ, I'm in the wrong part of the state.

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He fakes bunt and pulls back but he's in front of the plate, so it's no call becasue no bunt?

It's a ball or strike.

So it's post-game and we're in the changing room and you say, "Rog, great game back there. You were dead on. But I need to talk to you about that batters box call..."

You get a changing room? GEEZ, I'm in the wrong part of the state.

The bunt... don't worry about that. I was in a a venting moment. But yeah, we got a changing room... couple of them actually. But for some reason, one of them is really crowded because of a couple of tractors, some shovels and rakes, and about 500 bags of diamond dry; the other is kinda' creepy because the scorekeeper keeps peeking at us while she keeps score.

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But yeah, we got a changing room... couple of them actually. But for some reason, one of them is really crowded because of a couple of tractors, some shovels and rakes, and about 500 bags of diamond dry; the other is kinda' creepy because the scorekeeper keeps peeking at us while she keeps score.

She? Even better.

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Roger, I am on your side on this. The batter set up as far up in the box as possible, which gave you the heads up to a potential problem. If the batter were mid-box or somewhat up and took a huge stride on a slow pitch it is probably not something you notice, but to set up on the line and then take the big stride out of the box...

It is amazing how much more you can see and process in these lower age groups after working older games.

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Roger, ..

this is the side of umpiring I don't like ...or should I say, the side of umpire-forums that I don't like. To be honest, this site usually isn't like this ....umpire.org, however, can be.

Actually, I'm surprised at this reaction by a lot of guys here. TO ALL: This is umpire-empire ....let's keep it the way it's always been!! Light, a learning experience without beind disrespectful, etc, etc, ...come on, you know the drill! :)

Bottom line Roger, ....you saw it, you called it. It is what it is .... but you didn't tell the entire story. What was said to you about that call in the post-game,....you never finished that ??

On another issue: Some constructive criticism that is USUALLY pointed out here ....

1) "TIME" not .... "DEAD BALL" .... Trust me, ..it's not that easy, but ....TIME ....never say DEAD BALL ... "Time is the call that makes the ball dead" ....see the diff ? ;)

2) I can NEVER imagine a time where the crowd can't hear me ....never.....(of course, unless, I'm doing a game at Comerica Park, and we all know THAT ain't happening! :) )

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Spirit vs. Letter of the rules, yes there are plenty. But I can't anticipate or predict bunts. In both the OBR and FED, the rules are quite specific as to the infraction and the penalty and there's not a word 1about bunt. What if the DC had spotted this and came trotting out? "Ooops sorry coach. You caught me. Batters out!" ?

"Coach, do you want me to watch the pitch or the batter's feet?" If you're watching the feet, you can't be tracking the pitch in.

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Roger, ..

this is the side of umpiring I don't like ...or should I say, the side of umpire-forums that I don't like. To be honest, this site usually isn't like this ....umpire.org, however, can be.

Actually, I'm surprised at this reaction by a lot of guys here. TO ALL: This is umpire-empire ....let's keep it the way it's always been!! Light, a learning experience without beind disrespectful, etc, etc, ...come on, you know the drill! :)

Bottom line Roger, ....you saw it, you called it. It is what it is .... but you didn't tell the entire story. What was said to you about that call in the post-game,....you never finished that ??

On another issue: Some constructive criticism that is USUALLY pointed out here ....

1) "TIME" not .... "DEAD BALL" .... Trust me, ..it's not that easy, but ....TIME ....never say DEAD BALL ... "Time is the call that makes the ball dead" ....see the diff ? ;)

2) I can NEVER imagine a time where the crowd can't hear me ....never.....(of course, unless, I'm doing a game at Comerica Park, and we all know THAT ain't happening! :) )

Hmmm... Constructive criticism? I was beginning to wonder if any would show up. Doesn't seem to be the norm.

There was no real/formal post-game. But my partner asked me after the game how far he had stepped out and I told him it was at least the width of my hand (I know I said earlier that it was about 3 inches, but it was more like 5-6). He then asked me how I saw it and I told him the pitch was low inside and bat met ball right over the foot and because he was ALL the way up in the box in a tight/closed stance... meaning the batter knew where the markers were... it was actually pretty easy to see. He said "good call" and laughed at what the coach said since anyone that's seen me work would definitely NOT say I was doggin'. My Chief found me later for the EJ report and simply told me "good call" and he was glad I ran the guy... and how far he had stepped out. I told him and he nodded and left.

1) Exactly.

2) I was surprised too since some of my calls are so loud they actually make people jump a little sometimes. With all the people and coaches yelling from so close, my voice got lost in the hubub. My partner said he heard, and I think a couple of fielders did too. The hesitation by me to sidestep up the line, check the runner scoring then the touch at first, then the the step-forward for the triple-check of the cleat mark and quadruple-check again contributed. An immediate bellow would've froze everything. As I recreate the play, it's actually getting clearer.

His next time up, same stance in same place. He lifted his foot and put it down in the same spot IN the box as he crushed a hanger in the middle of the zone (after the game, he came over and shook my hand)... Two batters later, the batter drew in the front line for himself. I'll have more to say on this whole thing later. I'm going to bounce it off tonight's partner and some guys next week and see what their call may have been a nd also if they choose insult & bash or respect & construct...

Thanks!

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Roger, ..

this is the side of umpiring I don't like ...or should I say, the side of umpire-forums that I don't like. To be honest, this site usually isn't like this ....umpire.org, however, can be.

Actually, I'm surprised at this reaction by a lot of guys here. TO ALL: This is umpire-empire ....let's keep it the way it's always been!! Light, a learning experience without beind disrespectful, etc, etc, ...come on, you know the drill! :)

Bottom line Roger, ....you saw it, you called it. It is what it is .... but you didn't tell the entire story. What was said to you about that call in the post-game,....you never finished that ??

On another issue: Some constructive criticism that is USUALLY pointed out here ....

1) "TIME" not .... "DEAD BALL" .... Trust me, ..it's not that easy, but ....TIME ....never say DEAD BALL ... "Time is the call that makes the ball dead" ....see the diff ? ;)

2) I can NEVER imagine a time where the crowd can't hear me ....never.....(of course, unless, I'm doing a game at Comerica Park, and we all know THAT ain't happening! :) )

Hmmm... Constructive criticism? I was beginning to wonder if any would show up. Doesn't seem to be the norm.

There was no real/formal post-game. But my partner asked me after the game how far he had stepped out and I told him it was at least the width of my hand (I know I said earlier that it was about 3 inches, but it was more like 5-6). He then asked me how I saw it and I told him the pitch was low inside and bat met ball right over the foot and because he was ALL the way up in the box in a tight/closed stance... meaning the batter knew where the markers were... it was actually pretty easy to see. He said "good call" and laughed at what the coach said since anyone that's seen me work would definitely NOT say I was doggin'. My Chief found me later for the EJ report and simply told me "good call" and he was glad I ran the guy... and how far he had stepped out. I told him and he nodded and left.

1) Exactly.

2) I was surprised too since some of my calls are so loud they actually make people jump a little sometimes. With all the people and coaches yelling from so close, my voice got lost in the hubub. My partner said he heard, and I think a couple of fielders did too. The hesitation by me to sidestep up the line, check the runner scoring then the touch at first, then the the step-forward for the triple-check of the cleat mark and quadruple-check again contributed. An immediate bellow would've froze everything. As I recreate the play, it's actually getting clearer.

His next time up, same stance in same place. He lifted his foot and put it down in the same spot IN the box as he crushed a hanger in the middle of the zone (after the game, he came over and shook my hand)... Two batters later, the batter drew in the front line for himself. I'll have more to say on this whole thing later. I'm going to bounce it off tonight's partner and some guys next week and see what their call may have been a nd also if they choose insult & bash or respect & construct...

Thanks!

Yes, actually, ... THIS IS THE SITE for good constructive criticism that doesn't usually get condescending, but ...as with anyplace on the internet....it happens! Right? On that same note .... you're an umpire, you should have thick skin and realize that it's not all wine and roses with what we do , ...and that goes for the internet also. It happens on here, although not very much. I personally prefer this site over the 'other' one .....

People who were there and discussed the issue with you all agreed, ....you've done nothing wrong.....

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They may have "agreed" but I bet most or all won't make that call and don't go looking for it.

In the latest post, it was revealed to be looking for it again, even with a pitch down the middle. And, the story is constantly changing. Now, it is 5 - 6 inches.

There is a reason these kind of calls are not sought out to be called. The accuracy isn't there and these posts prove it. And, it causes unnecessary problems. Again, the posts prove it.

Criticism is constructive if one chooses to use it. As shown, it is going to be refused. Thus, making it non-constructive. I think the message is pretty clear by all parties on this. Look for trouble and it will find you as proven by the mere subject of this thread. This falls under the "catcher's balk" we love to discuss after someone makes that call. The intent of the rule is not being violated so why go looking for the trouble.

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They may have "agreed" but I bet most or all won't make that call and don't go looking for it.

In the latest post, it was revealed to be looking for it again, even with a pitch down the middle. And, the story is constantly changing. Now, it is 5 - 6 inches.

There is a reason these kind of calls are not sought out to be called. The accuracy isn't there and these posts prove it. And, it causes unnecessary problems. Again, the posts prove it.

Criticism is constructive if one chooses to use it. As shown, it is going to be refused. Thus, making it non-constructive. I think the message is pretty clear by all parties on this. Look for trouble and it will find you as proven by the mere subject of this thread. This falls under the "catcher's balk" we love to discuss after someone makes that call. The intent of the rule is not being violated so why go looking for the trouble.

I have learned something here and that's, as you said earlier, the spirit of this rule. I have not and would never go looking for this call but have called it once on a normal pitch and foul ball but the batter was extremely far out of the front of the box, obvious to all. Would you EVER make this call on anything besides a drag bunt or IBB?

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They may have "agreed" but I bet most or all won't make that call and don't go looking for it.

In the latest post, it was revealed to be looking for it again, even with a pitch down the middle. And, the story is constantly changing. Now, it is 5 - 6 inches.

There is a reason these kind of calls are not sought out to be called. The accuracy isn't there and these posts prove it. And, it causes unnecessary problems. Again, the posts prove it.

Criticism is constructive if one chooses to use it. As shown, it is going to be refused. Thus, making it non-constructive. I think the message is pretty clear by all parties on this. Look for trouble and it will find you as proven by the mere subject of this thread. This falls under the "catcher's balk" we love to discuss after someone makes that call. The intent of the rule is not being violated so why go looking for the trouble.

I have learned something here and that's, as you said earlier, the spirit of this rule. I have not and would never go looking for this call but have called it once on a normal pitch and foul ball but the batter was extremely far out of the front of the box, obvious to all. Would you EVER make this call on anything besides a drag bunt or IBB?

OK, so I guess "looking for it" = I should never look for batters feet to make sure they're in the box. Thought I was taught that once, but I guess that's wrong.

Being aware of the what's going on... where the fielders are (Why is F3 there? Possible OBS on R1.), where the runners are (R3 has a 40 ft lead. Snap throw from F2 possible and the batter is way back), is the pitcher's foot all the way on the rubber (holy crap he's halfway off it in the strech. Balk coming.) is the batter in the box (he's almost on top of the plate with a runner on 3rd in a tie game. Squeeze coming? He better be careful where he steps.)... and are any of them in a place that could, well, cause a problem. Am I the only one that checks or is aware of these things? That's being, prepared, aware, observant and non-complacent, not "looking for it". Then I zone in on my responsibilities and as the play develops, I let it all come to me and I don't get surprised very often.Perhaps it's the ballplayer in me that keeps me thinking a little and on my toes for what can happen. Many many many times, I've let that call go because I either couldn't tell for sure if he was all the way out, or it was just too close... and over time I think I've only called it 3 other times. Twice on bunts when I was sure his foot was definitely down, and another jumping over to foul off the 3rd pitch of an IBB. I've never seen a player step that far out at any level, but he did.

I understand intent, spirit, and letter. Some of the "intent of the rule" is to not allow the batter to stand wherever he wants or step out of the box to gain an advantage, not just for bunts or IBB's. If that's the case, perhaps they should just eliminate the front line of the box, or all of them. We're pretty hard on the pitchers for every little thing they do so they can't gain advantages on runners or batters, but it seems the batter can do whatever they want, especially if they know their umpires don't want trouble. INT/OBS is sometimes not "obvious to all", but the call is made. Catch/no catch is sometimes not "obvious to all", but the call is made. Many calls that we make outside the play itself aren't "obvious", and we all know that sometimes we're the only one that saw it. But the call is made. Honestly guys, would a good umpire let go and ignore every call that might cause "trouble" (do they teach that at clinics/camps?). Some of you may say, "No. But a good one will let a few go." Well I do too, but not this one in this case in this situation.

As an umpire, it it is not my job to interpret the intent of any rule, but rather to either apply or not apply it in a given situation based on what I saw and know, with experience thrown in. In this situation, I applied it and many believe I should not have. I will think twice, but quickly because there's a play going on, if it happens again and keeping in mind what was said here, I'll probably lean towards the traditional silence. We'll see...

Also, it seems the only "trouble" is with the large group that said to ignore it. Nobody at the park, except the ejected coach (and judging by a lot of the threads, EJ is no "trouble" to a lot of you at all), had any problems with it at all.

Criticism is also most constructive if it is given. As shown, there's not much of it being given.

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You are going to extremes on the field and on what we are saying and then giving different information from post to post. Most of us are just telling you how we would handle it. I'm just telling it like I have been told at many different clinics and camps that I have attended. It doesn't matter to me one iota how you want to call it.

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You are going to extremes on the field and on what we are saying and thengiving different information from post to post. Most of us are just telling youhow we would handle it. I'm just telling it like I have been told at manydifferent clinics and camps that I have attended. It doesn't matter to me oneiota how you want to call it.

Understood. When I first found this forum, your posts, and a couple of others that have chimed in, caught my eye right away , and I've been reading quite a few of them. I respect what you're saying and where you're coming from. I'm looking forward to reading more of what you have to say, and really looking ahead to communicating with you and the others more as the seasons flyby. I am indeed way behind on clinics and camps due to expense... it's been a long time and they're not cheap... and circumstance, though It looks like I may get to pick one or two up this summer. Thanks.

(Itwas not my intent to give different information in post to post, but rather, as I kept replaying it in my mind, perhaps I was trying to better clarify theentire scene in those replays. Fail.)

I'll leave it at that, but I'll respectfully reply/respond to whatever you guys got as best as I can. There's a lot that has sunk in here, and yes "extreme" could be a word for a lot of what's up there. On my end, I think there's a reason for it, but I'll have to bounce that off of you guys another time.

RK

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