Time? To throw it?!

[SnareDrum]

Our city 13U "Competitive" league. One of the best leagues around with quite a few good players and teams. The local HS's form teams, based on their feeder middle schools, and we draw other teams from towns within a 50 mile radius. It's not unusual to see a few of the local HS coaches in the stands scouting potential transfers.

Top of the 1st and I'm BU. R1, R2, batter hits a basic single to CF. Ball comes in to F4 in short center and as he trots in to the infield, he looks at me, raises his hands and asks for time. I said, "For what?" He said, "So I can throw the ball to the pitcher." I told him that he wasn't getting time for that and to throw the ball. (There's a bit of a backstory to this, but I'll get to that in a moment.) He gave a strange look, but tossed it to the pitcher. I heard zero from the dugout. They tried it one other time that inning.

At the half-inning, the expected...

VC: "How come you won't give my players time out?

BU: "For what?"

VC: "So they can throw the ball to the pitcher."

BU: "So they can what?" (BU fun time commence!)

VC: "So they can throw the ball back to the pitcher."

BU: "I'm not calling time for that coach."

VC: "But the runners are stopped and we don't want them to take off."

BU: "So you want me to give the defense an advantage?"

VC: "A what? How is that an advantage? You're giving the offense an advantage!"

BU: "So let me get this straight (I'm actually kind of enjoying this), you expect me to grant time after every hit so the runners won't run and you can return the ball to the pitcher without worrying about a bad throw?

VC: "Right!"

BU: "Ain't gonna happen."

VC: "But we always do! I coach my Varsity to do that in their games and they get it!"

BU: "Not in MY Varsity games, coach. And honestly, I haven't seen that done anywhere except Coach Pitch." (OK, fun time ending... ejection sequence commence)

VC: "But other umpires do! How come you won't?!!"

BU: "They can ask, but it's Umpire's discretion whether or not to grant time in any situation, coach. My discretion says, ain't gonna' happen. They gotta' be able to throw the ball back."

VC: "HOW COME? I just want to know why..."

BU: "I'm done talking about it, coach." I turned and walked. He didn't follow. Ejection sequence aborted.

No probs for the rest of the game. The infielders ran it in and made the short throws to the pitcher. Every now and then, in other games a fielder will ask, I say no, and that's it. I guess if you can get it, go for it. The backstory: we have a couple of umpires who used to grant time for this. One wasn't paying attention one night and called it as a runner was past third and halfway home. The appropriate chaos ensued. He doesn't do that anymore. I have a couple of other "Time!" fiascos that I'll post later... Maybe you have one?

So I guess after all of that, "Hey Blue! Time! I need to throw the ball to the pitcher, and just in case I make a bad throw I don't want the runners to run!!" Do you give it? With me, Ain't gonna' happen!

[catsbackr]

Excellent post!

[sdix00]

I would not think anyone on this forum has done it, since being on this forum, anyway.

I imagine calling 'Time' at the wrong, er time, is the least of these folks' problems. They are probably doing a lot of things incorrectly if they are not getting this one right.

For example, just this week:

HS Game:

"Batter's out! Jewelry on the wrist. Batters out!"

LL Game:

Runner's out! Runner left before the pitch reached the catcher!"

And one I heard about:

HS Game:

PU: Coach! Do you have a bucket I can borrow? I need a place to sit between innings."

As far as the Umpire calling 'Time', I am sure he is putting the ball back in play properly.

[txump81]

I call with a guy that can't wait to bang a batter out for jewelry. Its seems to be the highlight of his season. I just shake my head an move on.

[gdpmumin]

LL Game:

Runner's out! Runner left before the pitch reached the catcher!"

We actually carry penalty flags with us to make this call. If a runner leaves before the pitch reaches the plate (and it catches our attention), we drop the flag, let the play continue, and rule the runner out after the play. Interestingly (or not) enough, we do not call it when a runner leaves early on a caught pop fly. We have to wait for the appeal. I hate that and I'm just waiting for the first time I have to drop the flag.

[mstaylor]

What ruleset calls a runner out for leaving early. The systems I am aware of only sends them back. Softball calls them out but not baseball.

[carolinablue]

LL Game:

Runner's out! Runner left before the pitch reached the catcher!"

We actually carry penalty flags with us to make this call. If a runner leaves before the pitch reaches the plate (and it catches our attention), we drop the flag, let the play continue, and rule the runner out after the play. Interestingly (or not) enough, we do not call it when a runner leaves early on a caught pop fly. We have to wait for the appeal. I hate that and I'm just waiting for the first time I have to drop the flag.

I don't do much small diamond anymore but I do every once in awhile. This brings up something I have never thought of before. If you had a R1 who left early on a base hit and ended up on 3B but missed 2B on his way there, do you call time and send him back to 2B and cost the defense thier chance to appeal ?

[JaxRolo]

LL Game:

Runner's out! Runner left before the pitch reached the catcher!"

We actually carry penalty flags with us to make this call. If a runner leaves before the pitch reaches the plate (and it catches our attention), we drop the flag, let the play continue, and rule the runner out after the play. Interestingly (or not) enough, we do not call it when a runner leaves early on a caught pop fly. We have to wait for the appeal. I hate that and I'm just waiting for the first time I have to drop the flag.

I don't do much small diamond anymore but I do every once in awhile. This brings up something I have never thought of before. If you had a R1 who left early on a base hit and ended up on 3B but missed 2B on his way there, do you call time and send him back to 2B and cost the defense thier chance to appeal ?

It says the runner is out anyway.

In Babe Ruth the runners are returned back to the base. They are not out. If bases are loaded and the BR reaches 1st base safely the runner that was on third is removed and no runs shall score.

[SnareDrum]

We have a league here in town, Rec 9 & 10 with a no lead-off rule modification. Runners out if he leaves a base before the ball crosses the plate. The umpires are told to make the call immediately if the ball's not hit, or make the call after the play. They used to use flags. It's a single umpire for this league now (behind plate & a a fun place for new umpires!) so it's a hard call to make.

[carolinablue]

In LL he is not out, just sent back.

[Dragon29]

LL Game:

Runner's out! Runner left before the pitch reached the catcher!"

We actually carry penalty flags with us to make this call. If a runner leaves before the pitch reaches the plate (and it catches our attention), we drop the flag, let the play continue, and rule the runner out after the play. Interestingly (or not) enough, we do not call it when a runner leaves early on a caught pop fly. We have to wait for the appeal. I hate that and I'm just waiting for the first time I have to drop the flag.

If you're doing actual 'Little League Baseball' (& not just some other form of youth baseball) there are two things wrong here.

First (as some others have already pointed out) it's not an Out; it's a "You - go back!"

Also, it's not an appeal play - ever. It has nothing to do with what type of fly ball is hit - that's ludicrous.

If it's not really Little League, well - go ahead and let them make up rules . . . :crazy:

[mstaylor]

LL Game:

Runner's out! Runner left before the pitch reached the catcher!"

We actually carry penalty flags with us to make this call. If a runner leaves before the pitch reaches the plate (and it catches our attention), we drop the flag, let the play continue, and rule the runner out after the play. Interestingly (or not) enough, we do not call it when a runner leaves early on a caught pop fly. We have to wait for the appeal. I hate that and I'm just waiting for the first time I have to drop the flag.

I don't do much small diamond anymore but I do every once in awhile. This brings up something I have never thought of before. If you had a R1 who left early on a base hit and ended up on 3B but missed 2B on his way there, do you call time and send him back to 2B and cost the defense thier chance to appeal ?

It says the runner is out anyway.

In Babe Ruth the runners are returned back to the base. They are not out. If bases are loaded and the BR reaches 1st base safely the runner that was on third is removed and no runs shall score.

On the first to third and second being missed, yes you send him back.

The bases loaded, runner disappears is what we always called the poof rule. Runner leaves early but bases stay loaded, nobody scores but nobody is out, poof.

[sdix00]

I don't do much small diamond anymore but I do every once in awhile. This brings up something I have never thought of before. If you had a R1 who left early on a base hit and ended up on 3B but missed 2B on his way there, do you call time and send him back to 2B and cost the defense thier chance to appeal ?

It says the runner is out anyway.

In Babe Ruth the runners are returned back to the base. They are not out. If bases are loaded and the BR reaches 1st base safely the runner that was on third is removed and no runs shall score.

On the first to third and second being missed, yes you send him back.

The bases loaded, runner disappears is what we always called the poof rule. Runner leaves early but bases stay loaded, nobody scores but nobody is out, poof.

There is an excellent thread on the Little League facebook page which addresses a missed-base / leaving-early situation. LL addresses this question directly. Several good umpires (from this board) also contribute intelligent opinions.

[Dragon29]

The bases loaded, runner disappears is what we always called the poof rule. Runner leaves early but bases stay loaded, nobody scores but nobody is out, poof.

Th 'poof' rule only applies if the batted ball remains in the infield and all runners advance one base. (7.13 Ex. 15)

[mstaylor]

Yes, I forgot to add that caveat. I have had more conversation with coaches over the whole 7.13 enforcement. It would be nice if the coaches really knew and understood the rules but that isn't reasonable. However, I would think they at least know the one that really screw with them.

[Dragon29]

Yes, I forgot to add that caveat. I have had more conversation with coaches over the whole 7.13 enforcement. It would be nice if the coaches really knew and understood the rules but that isn't reasonable. However, I would think they at least know the one that really screw with them.

My favorite conversation w/a manager over this rule was about 4 years ago in LL post-season. I called it on his R2 on a play where the batter hit a single, and brought him back to 2B. First, he asked why he had to go back to 2B - he was certain the penalty is supposed to be 1 base only. When that argument failed, he said I called it too soon - that I'm supposed to wait for an appeal from the opposing team. After that didn't work, I saw him flipping through the rule book (always a good thing!) in the dugout over the next couple of inning.

During an inning change-over later in the game, he started to come out of the dugout w/a questioning look on his face and the rule book in his hand. I stopped the book, but he asked, "Can you show me in the rule book where it says it's not an appeal play?"

Classic!

[grayhawk]

Most of the misconceptions about leaving early have been addressed, but there is one that has not. The ball does not have to cross the plate, it has to "reach the batter." In other words, if the batter can hit the ball with his bat, that is when the runners can leave their bases.

[Dragon29]

Most of the misconceptions about leaving early have been addressed, but there is one that has not. The ball does not have to cross the plate, it has to "reach the batter." In other words, if the batter can hit the ball with his bat, that is when the runners can leave their bases.

True - When I'm in 'B' or 'C' (the hardest positions from which to judge leaving early based on your perspective to the plate) one of the criteria I use is when the batter swings. Regardless of all the other requirements, I figure if the batter think it's available to him, I've got no reason to hold the runner.

That being said, if you're coaching 'little' ones, I think the wisest thing to tell them is to wait till the batter swings or the catcher has it.

[gdpmumin]

Just for clarification (if there is any in this situation), most of you guys are talking about Little League rules. I was not. I was talking about Dixie Youth Baseball rules, which are often quite different from other systems. In DYB, if a runner leaves the base before the ball reaches the plate--not the catcher, not the batter, the plate--the defensive coach has a number of options available to him. One of those options is runner is out. Other options include nullification of the entire play on which which the runner left early or only portions of the play. For example, if a run scores and there was an out on the play, DC can opt to nullify the run but keep the out. I'll need to check to see if the runner who scored is sent back to base, but I think he just disappears, not unlike the "poof play" others mentioned.

Also, the umpire only calls a runner leaving early if the hit is not a pop fly. If the hit is a pop fly to outfield, we do not call the runner for leaving early. We specifically have to wait for the defensive coach to appeal the play. If we see the runner leave early, we make the call on appeal. If we did not see the runner leave early, play stands.

I know it sounds weird, and I know it's a lot different from the systems you guys are used to calling, but it is the way DYB rules are set up. I find them to be a bit confusing, but it is the way it is. This situation is fortunately quite rare. I've never seen it called and I know it would never be called in a one man system because the PU is unlikely to see the runner leave early.

[Dragon29]

Just for clarification (if there is any in this situation), most of you guys are talking about Little League rules. I was not. I was talking about Dixie Youth Baseball rules, which are often quite different from other systems. . . .

Well, you made your original comment based upon a previous post that started with 'LL Game' so what were we supposed to think?

And, really I put some of that stuff out there so that guys who are doing actual 'Little League' wouldn't get misinformed

[gdpmumin]

Well, you made your original comment based upon a previous post that started with 'LL Game' so what were we supposed to think?

And, really I put some of that stuff out there so that guys who are doing actual 'Little League' wouldn't get misinformed

You're exactly right. I didn't identify DYB as the rule set I was referring to. When I posted to this thread, I had just responded in another thread and clearly indicated there I was DYB, and I must have thought I had done so here, too. My apologies for adding to the confusion. :(

[carolinablue]

On the first to third and second being missed, yes you send him back.

The bases loaded, runner disappears is what we always called the poof rule. Runner leaves early but bases stay loaded, nobody scores but nobody is out, poof.

On the first to third deal, I can see how that can become an akward situation if the DC sees the miss and wants to appeal.When you call time and send him back to 2B you are actually rewarding the runner for leaving early in that situation.

Sorry I messed up the quote from Micheal at the top, Fixed it for you, Mike.