Time of Pitch or Time of Throw?

[NavyBlue]

This is a multi-part question about the ball being thrown out of play.  OBR, Adult Men's League.

R1, R2, outs don’t matter.  Fly ball hit to shallow CF just behind 2B.  F4 and F8 converge, neither catches it, so force play now in effect.  R2 thought ball would be caught and hangs close to 2B (but not touching it).  R1 didn’t think it would be caught and advances toward 2B.  F8 picks up ball and throws to F6 covering 2B, but R1 was already standing on the base (so he’s safe).  R2 realizes he must advance to 3B so he turns and runs.  F6 throws to F5 for the force but ball goes out of play before R2 gets to 3B.  We rule two base award from time of throw.  R2 who had not yet acquired 3B scores.  R1 who had acquired 2B scores.  BR goes to 3B because he had acquired 1B at time of the throw.

1) Did we get this right?

DHC thinks this situation falls under the rules of a first play by an infielder, which, in fact, the ball going out of play was indeed the first play by an infielder. So he thinks base awards should be from time of pitch.  I fumbled with some words, but essentially told him that rule does not apply since an outfielder had made “the first play”.  I need some clear language to address this…

2) “Coach, once an outfielder handles a batted ball the first play by an infielder rule is no longer applicable.”    Would that be an accurate and acceptable response to him?

If my proposed statement were NOT true, anytime a batter hits a triple all an outfielder would have to do is throw the ball to an infielder and have the infielder throw the ball out of play over near 3B, then we’d have to move B1 back to 2B in accordance with a two base award from the time of pitch.  That would be all kinds of bad.

So, this got me thinking…change the scenario…bases empty, no outs…infield ground ball hit to F5 who gloves it while diving to his left.  Knowing he can’t make a throw to 1B from the ground he tosses the ball up to F6 who turns and fires the ball over to 1B.  Ball sails out of play.  I don’t think we’d consider his toss to F6 a play attempt so F6’s throw is the first play by an infielder.

3) Two bases from time of pitch?

Finally, (change scenario again), R1, no outs…R1 stealing on the pitch, slow ground ball to F6.  F6 fields and throws to F4 for the force at 2B.  F4 realizes R1 will beat the throw so he just catches the ball away from 2B and fires to 1B.  Ball sails out of play.  A coach might argue that there was never actually a “first play” at 2B, but in my mind when F6 threw to 2B he was attempting a play.  Just because F4 decided to abort the play attempt at 2B doesn’t change the fact that there was a play attempt. 

4) Two bases from time of throw?  R1 scores (since he had acquired 2B at the time of throw) and BR goes to 2B (he had not acquired 1B at the time of the throw).

Hoping someone will reply with Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.   Thanks!

[ArchAngel72]

Outs do matter why no infield fly if F4 could have fielded it?

 

[ArchAngel72]

It was not the initial  play so it should have been a 2 base award and from time of throw I believe as its no longer the initial play

 

edit I was wrong on the 3b its 2b award

 

[maven]

1. Yes.
2. DHC is wrong: "first play by an infielder" means "first play by anyone, and only if that person is an infielder."
3. No. F5 made the first throw, even if it was a "relay" throw. TOT.
4. Yes, TOT, F6 made a play (even though F4 gave up on it).

[MadMax]

22 hours ago, NavyBlue said:

OBR, Adult Men's League.

R1, R2, outs don’t matter.  Fly ball hit to shallow CF just behind 2B.  F4 and F8 converge, neither catches it,

 

22 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Outs do matter why no infield fly if F4 could have fielded it?

It is definitely a HTBT situation to judge IFF, but from the read of this, F4 did not make ordinary effort, ie. he did not set up beneath it, camp under it, etc. The context is crucial to the situation. F4’s presence or proximity to a fly ball in an IFF situation is not an automatic IFF.