What If Question

[SH0102]

So I was working a D3 NCAA game yesterday, 3-umpires, and I was U3 in B position (R1 only), with 2 outs.

The actual play that occurred was mundane but led to a post-game discussion that made me question what-if.

A fly ball was hit fairly deep to center, F8 was going back, caught on the run, and in his excitement at running it down and ending the inning and saving a run, he proceeded to run about 8 more steps while pumping his arms in excitement and spider-manning himself off the wall.

This led me to say later to partner that “if he had dropped that ball during those 8 steps or wall jump, I’ve got no-catch” (I did not signal out until he changed directions and came back towards infield) and my partner said “you’re asking for trouble if you make that call 8 steps later”

I know a catch requires either a change of direction or intentional and voluntary release, neither of which would have occurred.

got me wondering if I’m crazy and being a rule-lawyer and if anyone has actually had that happen and called it, and what was the aftermath (with partners, coaches, assignor, etc)

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, ShaunH said:

So I was working a D3 NCAA game yesterday, 3-umpires, and I was U3 in B position (R1 only), with 2 outs.

The actual play that occurred was mundane but led to a post-game discussion that made me question what-if.

A fly ball was hit fairly deep to center, F8 was going back, caught on the run, and in his excitement at running it down and ending the inning and saving a run, he proceeded to run about 8 more steps while pumping his arms in excitement and spider-manning himself off the wall.

This led me to say later to partner that “if he had dropped that ball during those 8 steps or wall jump, I’ve got no-catch” (I did not signal out until he changed directions and came back towards infield) and my partner said “you’re asking for trouble if you make that call 8 steps later”

I know a catch requires either a change of direction or intentional and voluntary release, neither of which would have occurred.

got me wondering if I’m crazy and being a rule-lawyer and if anyone has actually had that happen and called it, and what was the aftermath (with partners, coaches, assignor, etc)

It doesn't require a change of direction; it requires that the momentum of the catch is complete. Was it? 

[SH0102]

36 minutes ago, Matt said:

It doesn't require a change of direction; it requires that the momentum of the catch is complete. Was it? 

Sorry, I was typing from my phone and was not very accurate in description.  The rule book does use the specific example of the fielder reversing direction, and a CBUA training video showed an example of an Ohio state F9 diving towards the line, “catching the ball”, no longer moving, and in lifting his glove (while on ground) to show he caught it, the ball came out and it was “correctly” ruled no catch per the video bc he had no voluntary release.

anyways, no, his momentum had not stopped, though that was by choice, as he was purposely sprinting to the wall to jump off of it.

[Senor Azul]

2019-2020 NCAA rule 2

Catch

SECTION 16. The act of a fielder in getting secure possession in the hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it, providing the fielder does not use the cap, protector, pocket or any other part of the uniform in getting possession.

In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall demonstrate complete control of the ball and that the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. Only two circumstances may be interpreted as creating a voluntary and intentional release.

1) When the momentum of the catch is complete; i.e., the fielder has reversed his direction and is running the ball back toward the infield or;

2) When the fielder is reaching for the ball to make a throw.

[Replacematt]

39 minutes ago, ShaunH said:

Sorry, I was typing from my phone and was not very accurate in description.  The rule book does use the specific example of the fielder reversing direction, and a CBUA training video showed an example of an Ohio state F9 diving towards the line, “catching the ball”, no longer moving, and in lifting his glove (while on ground) to show he caught it, the ball came out and it was “correctly” ruled no catch per the video bc he had no voluntary release.

anyways, no, his momentum had not stopped, though that was by choice, as he was purposely sprinting to the wall to jump off of it.

It's an example, not a requirement.

I'm trying to get you to think of what the rule actually says. I also have had multiple issues as a CBUA member with their misinterpretations of these particular plays (I direct you to the video on 3/25/2019 which claims that voluntary release is needed on a tag, but that is not true. More importantly, it claims that the criteria for a catch and tag are the same, which is patently false.)

Momentum is not a choice--it exists or it doesn't. By your description, this is likely a catch, as the momentum had ended. The fielder's continued running was not momentum.

[SH0102]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

It's an example, not a requirement.

I'm trying to get you to think of what the rule actually says. I also have had multiple issues as a CBUA member with their misinterpretations of these particular plays (I direct you to the video on 3/25/2019 which claims that voluntary release is needed on a tag, but that is not true. More importantly, it claims that the criteria for a catch and tag are the same, which is patently false.)

Momentum is not a choice--it exists or it doesn't. By your description, this is likely a catch, as the momentum had ended. The fielder's continued running was not momentum.

I did not mean to sound callous if I did. I am always open to thoughts, ideas; and improvements.  I want to learn as much as I can, and as you suggest, navigate the sometimes contradictory or blatant misinformation that exists.

I am not even disagreeing; when I think of momentum, I picture a fielder charging a ball and leaning for catch...typically while you are still “recovering” from that sprint you are still bent over, and when able to come upright, generally are no longer in the throes of your momentum.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, ShaunH said:

I did not mean to sound callous if I did. I am always open to thoughts, ideas; and improvements.  I want to learn as much as I can, and as you suggest, navigate the sometimes contradictory or blatant misinformation that exists.

I am not even disagreeing; when I think of momentum, I picture a fielder charging a ball and leaning for catch...typically while you are still “recovering” from that sprint you are still bent over, and when able to come upright, generally are no longer in the throes of your momentum.

I always used something like "males some movement NOT needed to complete the catch."  So, running eight NOT NEEDED steps (i.e., the fielder could have stopped if he wanted to) or pumping his arms (because it was not needed to control the ball) means it was a catch.  And, yes, it's judgment; and yes, that's not exactly what the rule says.

[Replacematt]

13 minutes ago, ShaunH said:

 I picture a fielder charging a ball and leaning for catch...typically while you are still “recovering” from that sprint you are still bent over, and when able to come upright, generally are no longer in the throes of your momentum.

This is precisely why I think it's probably a catch.

You were there, and you're looking not to have your judgement validated, but your rules knowledge. You're thinking the right way.

[beerguy55]

22 hours ago, ShaunH said:

anyways, no, his momentum had not stopped, though that was by choice, as he was purposely sprinting to the wall to jump off of it.

That's a physical impossibility...once it became a choice the momentum of the catch completed...running the eight extra steps was momentum/impetus generated from a separate force/action.

 

[Recontra]

Great discussion, Thanks! Anyone have a decent signalling mechanic for "Secure Possession = Firmly Holding it = Catch" followed by involuntary release and the ball drops out after we have a catch--with no intended "transfer"--fielder just drops the ball, but after we have a legal catch??

I've always put my hands together in front of me, shake them like 3 times followed by a hammer while I shout "Secure possession! That's a catch! He's out!" Without hijacking the thread (if I am I can delete), do any of you have a better signalling mechanic for that call? I just kind of made that one up because it felt natural, and it makes the "But he dropped the ball!" conversation really short :-).

[Replacematt]

17 hours ago, Recontra said:

Great discussion, Thanks! Anyone have a decent signalling mechanic for "Secure Possession = Firmly Holding it = Catch" followed by involuntary release and the ball drops out after we have a catch--with no intended "transfer"--fielder just drops the ball, but after we have a legal catch??

I've always put my hands together in front of me, shake them like 3 times followed by a hammer while I shout "Secure possession! That's a catch! He's out!" Without hijacking the thread (if I am I can delete), do any of you have a better signalling mechanic for that call? I just kind of made that one up because it felt natural, and it makes the "But he dropped the ball!" conversation really short :-).

To be honest, I've had this happen exactly once and I used my normal mechanic, but selling it. There was no argument, nor do I think there would be on many of these, because it looks like what people think is a catch.

All of my catch/no catch arguments with regard to the ball falling out have been in situations where the act of the catch was not completed and there was no voluntary release (one was almost identical to the OP, only that he was at a dead sprint and had fewer steps before contacting the wall, dislodging the ball.) People think of things like having the ball "long enough" or "taking enough steps" as criteria for catches.