Intermediate LL Baseball - feint to 3B

[RBIbaseball]

I have been asked to be on the bases for the state championship tonight (2 man crew) and according to coaches/UIC, I have pretty much been the only one calling proper balks the entire tournament (thanks to you guys). But... The local UIC tried to convince me of a few intricacies with pickoff moves. Please clear the air for me, as I am unsure.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this...

Unlike MLB, According to LL rules, a feint to 3B is still legal. 8.05(b)

The above being true, the UIC told me a LHP can't feint to 3B on a pickoff move where he doesn't first disengage. But by my understanding that is irrelevant. He said only a RHP can feint on a direct step with his free foot. ??

He also said that in LL the feint to 3B, throw back to 1B "trick" play is not legal, but I see nothing in the rulebook that precludes that. A RHP can step with free foot, feint a throw, and then step and plant pivot foot for a throw back to 1B correct?

Can someone please explain when the traditional 2B spin move pickoff is a balk? My not so common sense tells me it is not a direct step, although I understand it's legal. Point being, as long as it's a continuous motion toward 2B it's good? (Ie No pauses, no free leg moving toward the plate)

 

Thank you guys.

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I have been asked to be on the bases for the state championship tonight (2 man crew) and according to coaches/UIC, I have pretty much been the only one calling proper balks the entire tournament (thanks to you guys). But... The local UIC tried to convince me of a few intricacies with pickoff moves. Please clear the air for me, as I am unsure.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this...

Unlike MLB, According to LL rules, a feint to 3B is still legal. 8.05(b)

The above being true, the UIC told me a LHP can't feint to 3B on a pickoff move where he doesn't first disengage. But by my understanding that is irrelevant. He said only a RHP can feint on a direct step with his free foot. ??

He also said that in LL the feint to 3B, throw back to 1B "trick" play is not legal, but I see nothing in the rulebook that precludes that. A RHP can step with free foot, feint a throw, and then step and plant pivot foot for a throw back to 1B correct?

Can someone please explain when the traditional 2B spin move pickoff is a balk? My not so common sense tells me it is not a direct step, although I understand it's legal. Point being, as long as it's a continuous motion toward 2B it's good? (Ie No pauses, no free leg moving toward the plate)

 

Thank you guys.

1) UIC is wrong.  There are no rules differences for RH and LH pitcher.

2) Legal IF the pitcher breaks contact with the rubber as part of the move (which happens 99.99% of the time) -- In FED, the pitcher need not break contact.  F1 needs to step toward third, break contact and replant the pivot foot, and then throw or feint to first (which will usually entail a step but is not required).  He cant pivot again off the pivot foot still on the rubber.  He cant' just step toward third and pivot off the foot to throw (or feint) to first without placing the pivot foot on the ground first.

3) the traditional spin move is not a balk (or it wouldn't happen, and wouldn't be traditional) -- so I'm not quite sure what you are asking here.

 

 

[RBIbaseball]

Just now, noumpere said:

1) UIC is wrong.  There are no rules differences for RH and LH pitcher.

2) Legal IF the pitcher breaks contact with the rubber as part of the move (which happens 99.99% of the time) -- In FED, the pitcher need not break contact.

3) the traditional spin move is not a balk (or it wouldn't happen, and wouldn't be traditional) -- so I'm not quite sure what you are asking here.

 

 

Poorly worded perhaps. I understand it's not a balk when executed properly. 

My question is, is there anything to look for when the pitcher executes it to call a balk? I had a pitcher raise his knee up, start the spin (leg moved a few inches), pause for about a half a second, then finish the spin and he choose not to throw ... Did the pause make it a balk because he didn't step directly to second?

Also, if the pitchers free leg moves forward toward the plate at all, he can no longer make the move correct?

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Poorly worded perhaps. I understand it's not a balk when executed properly. 

My question is, is there anything to look for when the pitcher executes it to call a balk? I had a pitcher raise his knee up, start the spin (leg moved a few inches), pause for about a half a second, then finish the spin and he choose not to throw ... Did the pause make it a balk because he didn't step directly to second?

Also, if the pitchers free leg moves forward toward the plate at all, he can no longer make the move correct?

Correct.

 

(Also, I edited point 2 above while you were sending this)

[RBIbaseball]

51 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Correct.

 

(Also, I edited point 2 above while you were sending this)

Just to clarify,  correct on the pause and the forward? 

Another question regarding pickoffs...

Can a pitcher perform a pickoff move or disengage the rubber in the middle of moving from the stretch to the set position? Or once he starts his natural movement from going from the stretch to set, does he have to come set before making any other movements?

 

Last question. Someone asked me this and I didnt have a great answer. Why does a pitcher have to come set? What I mean is, why does the rule exist? What advantage is it taking away from the pitcher?

[grayhawk]

22 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

Just to clarify,  correct on the pause and the forward? 

Another question regarding pickoffs...

Can a pitcher perform a pickoff move or disengage the rubber in the middle of moving from the stretch to the set position? Or once he starts his natural movement from going from the stretch to set, does he have to come set before making any other movements?

 

Last question. Someone asked me this and I didnt have a great answer. Why does a pitcher have to come set? What I mean is, why does the rule exist? What advantage is it taking away from the pitcher?

Yes

No

If a pitcher was able to pitch without coming to a discernible stop, it would be very difficult for a runner to steal.  The pitcher could pitch at any point during his stretch movement which would prevent a runner from ever getting any kind of jump.

[RBIbaseball]

14 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Yes

No

If a pitcher was able to pitch without coming to a discernible stop, it would be very difficult for a runner to steal.  The pitcher could pitch at any point during his stretch movement which would prevent a runner from ever getting any kind of jump.

Thanks Grayhawk.

Appreciate you guys not giving me too hard a time for these noob questions, lol.

[Jimurray]

 

48 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Yes

No

If a pitcher was able to pitch without coming to a discernible stop, it would be very difficult for a runner to steal.  The pitcher could pitch at any point during his stretch movement which would prevent a runner from ever getting any kind of jump.

Off topic and not relevant to LL INT. I haven't yet seen sideways pitchers like Strop yet take advantage of declaring the windup and throwing home without a windup. They do it to keep the batter off balance but they haven't used that loophole to pitch quickly with the possibility a squeeze or steal with R3.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

Can a pitcher perform a pickoff move or disengage the rubber in the middle of moving from the stretch to the set position? Or once he starts his natural movement from going from the stretch to set, does he have to come set before making any other movements?

Yes -- if the motion to disengage is continuous and smooth.  Sometimes, however, the pitcher starts to come set, decides he wants another sign, starts to drop back down, realizes that won't be allowed, and then tries to step off.  That's a balk.

 

This is from JR (NOTE:  It's an OLD version.  Don't want anyone to be confused).

It is a balk if a pitcher
1. hesitates in or interrupts his motion to join hands, pitch, throw, or disengage.
However, it is not a balk if a pitcher who has begun his motion to join hands shifts
in a fluid and continuous motion to throw or to disengage the rubber. Also, an
umpire must recognize the difference between the motion to join hands and other
neutral movement that is not relevant to the joining of hands, e.g., a pitcher rotates
his glove to signal the catcher for another set of signs, or a hunched-over pitcher
straightens his body when the catcher requests time.
NOTE: The motion to join hands is optional in the windup mode. The pitcher may
pause once his hands have become joined before proceeding to pitch, step and throw,
or disengage. The motion to join hands is considered a motion to pitch until a pitcher
pauses, so if a pitcher interrupts this motion before pausing, it is a balk.
Examples:
(a) R2 and R1. A right-handed pitcher, uncertain of the first baseman's
approach of the base, steps to first, but throws only after hesitating in his
motion to throw: balk.
(b) R1. A left-handed pitcher lifts his free foot and suspends it still for a split
second before proceeding in his motion to throw: hesitation, balk.
(c) R1. After coming set, a right-handed pitcher's right knee quickly buckles
before he throws to first: if the buckling is a separate, discontinuous
motion before the motion to throw, there is a balk. However, if the
buckling is merely part of a fluid and continuous motion to throw, there is
no balk.
(d) R2. From the stretch position the pitcher begins a motion to join hands,
but stops and disengages: if the shift is fluid and continuous, there is not a
balk. However, if the shift is discontinuous, there is a balk.