When is a Sac fly a Sac fly?

[Guest Andy]

This got a lot of people thrown out of the game in a 40+ mens league last night.

Runners at 1st and 3rd with ONE out.  Batter hits a fly ball to right field.  RF catches the ball (2nd OUT), and fires home to get the runner tagging up.  Runner from third is safe and crosses home before the catcher tags him.  Meanwhile, runner at first lost track of outs, and left on the crack of the bat.  Catcher sees him walking back to first, fires down...and first baseman tags 1B for the 3rd out.   The question is:

Does the run count?  (because runner crossed the plate first)  Or is it like any standard double play and eliminate the run?

[pnewton]

That run counts.  The out at first is not a force out.  You use the term "any standard double play" which is not a term found or used in the rule book.  Runs do not score on a play where the third out is made either on a force out or the batter before reaching first base.  The batter was the second out when the fly ball was caught so that's clearly not the third out.  By definition a runner is never forced to retreat, only to advance when the batter becomes a runner (the batter was already out so that isn't happening here either).  The out at first is, by rule, an appeal and not a force.  

I hope you were on the correct side of that argument!

Edited August 13, 2018 by pnewton

[AJLewis35]

I was!  I was the guy who scored from 3rd.  (and at age 46, it's not that easy to sprint home!)    

Thanks for the clarification.  They tried to argue (the defensive team) that like any double play, the run scoring is irrelevant (just as it would be on a 4-6-3 DP)...but like you said...once that ball is caught in RF, it's not a given that the runner is forced back.  he's on his own, as is the runner at third tagging up.

Appreciate the help

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 OBR rule 5.08 Comment…

APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder’s throw beat him to the base. Three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

By the way, it was a double play by definition and should be recorded as such by the scorekeeper—

A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.

 

[maven]

It was a double play, but that's irrelevant to whether the run scores.

In general, the run scores if the runner touches HP before the defense records the 3rd out.

The exceptional case is the one where the 3rd out is a force out (or the BR before he touches 1B). In your play, the appeal is not a force play (even though the defense tagged the base, not the runner). Thus the general rule applies: count the run.