Is THIS a balk.

[stl_ump]

OBR and RHP

Pitcher is set and does the typical spin move to throw to first. However, instead of his right foot ending up closer to the 3rd base side of the rubber, it lands behind the rubber.

He did not throw the ball.

Now I know you can't fake to 1st and that would constitute a balk but since his foot ended up behind the rubber I'm thinking it's similar to stepping of and then throwing.

But he didn't step off then throw. It was all in one motion. I'm thinking this should have been a balk.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

stl_ump,

That's a BALK!

JM

[yawetag]

stl_ump,

That's a BALK!

JM

+1. Balk all day. Unless the step back and fake were two separate moves, it's a balk.

[stl_ump]

That's what I was inclined to go with as well.

Thanks

[mstaylor]

Disengaging is a two step process and from there you can fake. A jump move or spin move is an engaged pick and you have to throw. Where his pivot foot lands does not matter, sometimes they land in front, to the side, on top or even on the rubber. The difference is it is one move, they gain distance and direction and they must throw.

[sdix00]

Question, then.

A fairly common move I see is F1 will disengage (pivot foot behind the rubber) and fake to 1B simultaneously. Imagine moving the pivot foot back and throwing hand back at the same time.

I have never called this a balk.

Am I misreading the example here? Should I be calling this? Is this a completely different sitch?

Thanks

[JaxRolo]

Question, then.

A fairly common move I see is F1 will disengage (pivot foot behind the rubber) and fake to 1B simultaneously. Imagine moving the pivot foot back and throwing hand back at the same time.

I have never called this a balk.

Am I misreading the example here? Should I be calling this? Is this a completely different sitch?

Thanks

As long as he disengages I would be hard pressed to call a balk on this one.

[Mr Umpire]

Am I misreading the example here? Should I be calling this? Is this a completely different sitch?

Thanks

I think they are 2 different situations. And, if all he does is take his hand out of the glove, I wouldn't even think about calling it. Generally, moves from the rubber involve more body movement than hand. In the OP, since it is a jump/spin move, his front foot is gaining distance to 1B. In yours, nothing but his hand moved.

Different moves with different outcomes. Yours is acceptable not to call a balk. I don't even know what rule you would truly apply to even get a balk call.

[sdix00]

Am I misreading the example here? Should I be calling this? Is this a completely different sitch?

Thanks

I think they are 2 different situations. And, if all he does is take his hand out of the glove, I wouldn't even think about calling it. Generally, moves from the rubber involve more body movement than hand. In the OP, since it is a jump/spin move, his front foot is gaining distance to 1B. In yours, nothing but his hand moved.

Different moves with different outcomes. Yours is acceptable not to call a balk. I don't even know what rule you would truly apply to even get a balk call.

Exactly, this is why I am having a hard time with calling a balk in the OP right now.

F1 disengages.

In order to legally disengage, F1 must pick up his pivot foot off the rubber and place it behind the rubber. I am not sure the other stuff matters once he has disengaged. Distance and direction means nothing unless F1 is engaged.

What am I missing?

[Dragon29]

Am I misreading the example here? Should I be calling this? Is this a completely different sitch?

Thanks

I think they are 2 different situations. And, if all he does is take his hand out of the glove, I wouldn't even think about calling it. Generally, moves from the rubber involve more body movement than hand. In the OP, since it is a jump/spin move, his front foot is gaining distance to 1B. In yours, nothing but his hand moved.

Different moves with different outcomes. Yours is acceptable not to call a balk. I don't even know what rule you would truly apply to even get a balk call.

Exactly, this is why I am having a hard time with calling a balk in the OP right now.

F1 disengages.

In order to legally disengage, F1 must pick up his pivot foot off the rubber and place it behind the rubber. I am not sure the other stuff matters once he has disengaged. Distance and direction means nothing unless F1 is engaged.

What am I missing?

The fact that his non-pivot foot gained distance/direction either before or as he disengaged. If he's not going to throw, he must disenage first to avoid the balk.

[mstaylor]

OK, in the op it was a typical spin move but he landed behind the rubber but didn't throw. A spin move is where the pitcher goes up with both feet spins and throws to first. This is considered a move while engaged so the throw is necessary.

In the example you just sited, the pitcher steps back and immediately fakes or throws to first. That is the proper way to disengage and no is possible unless he throws before the pivot lands. It can be very quick but it must be two different moves.

[Umpire in Chief]

I would balk it. because the move was that of a jump turn. The fact his foot ended up behind the rubber is irrelevant. This is a jump turn because his front foot is moving same as the pivot foot thus making it a balk if he doesn't deliver.

[Mr Umpire]

Exactly, this is why I am having a hard time with calling a balk in the OP right now.

F1 disengages.

In order to legally disengage, F1 must pick up his pivot foot off the rubber and place it behind the rubber. I am not sure the other stuff matters once he has disengaged. Distance and direction means nothing unless F1 is engaged.

What am I missing?

The fact that his non-pivot foot gained distance/direction either before or as he disengaged. If he's not going to throw, he must disenage first to avoid the balk.

This is exactly what you are missing, Dix. The fact that the disengagement and turn to 1B was simultaneous. They have to occur at completely 2 different moments to not be a balk. He needs to step back first and then turn to 1B. If he steps back and turns at the same time, he better throw the ball or it will be a balk. It doesn't matter if his foot went behind the rubber or not in this case. It all matters about the timing of the 2 actions: disengaging and turning to 1B.

[sdix00]

Exactly, this is why I am having a hard time with calling a balk in the OP right now.

F1 disengages.

In order to legally disengage, F1 must pick up his pivot foot off the rubber and place it behind the rubber. I am not sure the other stuff matters once he has disengaged. Distance and direction means nothing unless F1 is engaged.

What am I missing?

The fact that his non-pivot foot gained distance/direction either before or as he disengaged. If he's not going to throw, he must disenage first to avoid the balk.

This is exactly what you are missing, Dix. The fact that the disengagement and turn to 1B was simultaneous. They have to occur at completely 2 different moments to not be a balk. He needs to step back first and then turn to 1B. If he steps back and turns at the same time, he better throw the ball or it will be a balk. It doesn't matter if his foot went behind the rubber or not in this case. It all matters about the timing of the 2 actions: disengaging and turning to 1B.

Thanks. I am starting to see it now. Three ways of saying the same thing really helps.

Thanks!