Flashy Release by F3?

[Replacematt]

On 5/11/2017 at 2:14 PM, ElkOil said:

If he intentionally released the ball, it's a catch. It's a bobble or no catch if he doesn't intentionally release it. The release is a subsequent part of the action, so as long as the initial catching action was complete, you've got an out.

Intentional release isn't necessary. The only thing we need here is possession through the act of the tag. 

[White47]

Intentional release isn't necessary. The only thing we need here is possession through the act of the tag. 

I'll agree that it isn't necessary, but it should be used as and indicator to help determine firm and secure possession.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VolUmp]

7 hours ago, maven said:

I don't think you understand preventive officiating.

A balk warning is issued after the infraction. Preventive officiating is done before an infraction.

Preventive officiating would lack point if it didn't prevent an infraction and penalty.

Maven,

Suppose you see a pitcher throwing his warm up pitches from the set, and he blows through the stop each time.  In HS anyway, this is a clue with 95% accuracy that he's gonna do that on the first pitch with a base runner. Would you casually walk by him and say, "be sure and give me a complete stop from the set."  I know this ... if you did that and I was the opposing coach and overheard it, I'd report it to the Association that you gave an unofficial balk warning to the opposing pitcher.  There's no difference in what you're doing to the F3.. ... you're taking a potential out away from me or a potential extra base on a balk.

I've seen umpires huddle at the MLB level and then speak with BOTH coaches about a pitcher's awkward delivery ... effectively warning him that it's illegal.  Specifically Rich Harden (WAAAAAY back when he was with the Cubs).  They had to do this, because it was debatable whether his delivery from the windup was legal.  They established between innings with both coaches that it was not legal, it had a "hitch" in it, and if he did it again, it would be called.

There is no gray area on an F3 who "appears" to bobble the ball or a pitcher who blows through a stop.  It's not preventive officiating to warn them.  It's giving them an advantage.

Preventive officiating example:

Batter is the guy who hit a home run last time up and jogged slowly around the bases.

"Son, if a pitch comes anywhere his head, both you and F1 are gone."

Translation: "I don't know or really care what you two have planned, I'm old school, but I've seen this situation 500 times, and there's a severe limit to what I'll tolerate."

I'm fine with preventive officiating that could "prevent" a bench clearing brawl or a kid taking an 88-mph fastball in the grill.

[VolUmp]

7 hours ago, maven said:

My view that we're part of the adult/instructional presence on the field is probably idiosyncratic.

At lower levels ... in ALL rec leagues, I don't think your view is idiosyncratic at all.  I think on the level of competitive travel ball, MS, HS, College, we cannot impose our assistance no matter how badly we may want to.  I've done it, and haven't really regretted it, but I think it's wrong.

Every time I see a batter-runner run out of the running lane and the catcher gets frustrated but never throws the ball, I want to pull him aside and say, "Son - HIT HIM THE BACK!"

Every time I see a batter step in front of a catcher who either wants to gun down a stealing runner and either eats it or takes a little off the throw, I want to pull him aside and say, "Throw the ball, and bump him in the back, and you'll get that call every time."

It's frustrating to see catchers who are young, full of talent, and haven't ever been coached properly, but as an umpire, it's not my place to fill in the blanks above rec ball.

[Replacematt]

30 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Maven,

Suppose you see a pitcher throwing his warm up pitches from the set, and he blows through the stop each time.  In HS anyway, this is a clue with 95% accuracy that he's gonna do that on the first pitch with a base runner. Would you casually walk by him and say, "be sure and give me a complete stop from the set."  I know this ... if you did that and I was the opposing coach and overheard it, I'd report it to the Association that you gave an unofficial balk warning to the opposing pitcher.  There's no difference in what you're doing to the F3.. ... you're taking a potential out away from me or a potential extra base on a balk.

I've seen umpires huddle at the MLB level and then speak with BOTH coaches about a pitcher's awkward delivery ... effectively warning him that it's illegal.  Specifically Rich Harden (WAAAAAY back when he was with the Cubs).  They had to do this, because it was debatable whether his delivery from the windup was legal.  They established between innings with both coaches that it was not legal, it had a "hitch" in it, and if he did it again, it would be called.

There is no gray area on an F3 who "appears" to bobble the ball or a pitcher who blows through a stop.  It's not preventive officiating to warn them.  It's giving them an advantage.

Preventive officiating example:

Batter is the guy who hit a home run last time up and jogged slowly around the bases.

"Son, if a pitch comes anywhere his head, both you and F1 are gone."

Translation: "I don't know or really care what you two have planned, I'm old school, but I've seen this situation 500 times, and there's a severe limit to what I'll tolerate."

I'm fine with preventive officiating that could "prevent" a bench clearing brawl or a kid taking an 88-mph fastball in the grill.

All of what you said here is wrong.

I have no problem of warning a pitcher during warm-ups...in fact, it's expected, and I was about to use that as an additional example of what preventative officiating is.

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

All of what you said here is wrong.

I have no problem of warning a pitcher during warm-ups...in fact, it's expected, and I was about to use that as an additional example of what preventative officiating is.

I don't know from which planet you hail ... or to what level of baseball you are referring, but you are absolutely breaking your oath and "code" by warning a pitcher during warm ups.  it is NOT expected ... it villified ... with punishments waiting in the way of warnings, lost games, suspensions, etc.

Everything I said was accurate.  Everything.  Some of it, Matt, I'm simply reporting ... not stating an opinion.  It happened under the eyes of the millions watching the game as well as the 24 cameras and the Umpire Supervisors and ultimately the Commissioner.

If a player or coach (or even better both ...) come to you and ask, "John ... watch my pitcher for a few warm up pitches and tell me if he's giving you enough of a stop."  Then that's both solicited and appropriate.

Matt, you're in way over your head.  I've seen your other posts.  Read & listen more.  Talk less. 

That's why you have one mouth and two eyes and two ears.

[Replacematt]

36 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

I don't know from which planet you hail ... or to what level of baseball you are referring, but you are absolutely breaking your oath and "code" by warning a pitcher during warm ups.  it is NOT expected ... it villified ... with punishments waiting in the way of warnings, lost games, suspensions, etc.

Everything I said was accurate.  Everything.  Some of it, Matt, I'm simply reporting ... not stating an opinion.  It happened under the eyes of the millions watching the game as well as the 24 cameras and the Umpire Supervisors and ultimately the Commissioner.

If a player or coach (or even better both ...) come to you and ask, "John ... watch my pitcher for a few warm up pitches and tell me if he's giving you enough of a stop."  Then that's both solicited and appropriate.

Matt, you're in way over your head.  I've seen your other posts.  Read & listen more.  Talk less. 

That's why you have one mouth and two eyes and two ears.

Pretty sure I'm not the one in over my head, given the games I've been assigned the last two weekends.

[maven]

[White47]

7 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Would you casually walk by him and say, "be sure and give me a complete stop from the set."  I know this ... if you did that and I was the opposing coach and overheard it, I'd report it to the Association that you gave an unofficial balk warning to the opposing pitcher. 

At every level I officiate we are told to do that, College to rec ball. This year in college with the new balk rule we are suppose to warn the pitcher during his warm ups if he isn't falling the new rule, and that is from the NCAA, Its actually covered in one of the Videos on the Hub if you have access to it. Most coaches I've every work with appreciate this as long as you do it on both sides. 

[LRZ]

Please keep things civil and professional, boys. Disagree, but no need to make it personal.

[LMSANS]

This topic is done.