Don't know if caught, 2 runners at 1B situation

[udbrky]

I'm BU, PU is very solid.

R1, batter bunts a popup, F1 comes diving in sideways, comes up and throws to F3.

I have:

BR gets there.

Throw gets there.

R1 gets back to 1B. No tag on him, F3 has foot on bag.

in that order, but I couldn't see or hear what PU called, so I do not know if he caught it or not.

What is the best way to handle this situation?

[ALStripes17]

I'm BU, PU is very solid.

R1, batter bunts a popup, F1 comes diving in sideways, comes up and throws to F3.

I have:

BR gets there.

Throw gets there.

R1 gets back to 1B. No tag on him, F3 has foot on bag.

in that order, but I couldn't see or hear what PU called, so I do not know if he caught it or not.

What is the best way to handle this situation?

Call what you know. Try to get clarification from PU. Let the play finish. When all is done, get together with PU to slow the brain down and think through the play. Get the call right.

 

And for what it's worth. The scenario you described has absolutely nothing yet anyway. If caught, then BR is out and R1 safely returned. If not caught, then R1 will be out if/when defense tags him or 2B.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[udbrky]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

 

And for what it's worth. The scenario you described has absolutely nothing yet anyway. If caught, then BR is out and R1 safely returned. If not caught, then R1 will be out if/when defense tags him or 2B.

 

 

 

 

This is what made me pause. If they tag him as well, then on either count, I've got the runner out. But if it's not caught, the runner can go to 2nd of course.

 

I watched it happen, made a note of what order I had it happen in, and then went "oh ****, I don't know what happened on the hit"

Looked at PU and asked, he pointed fair and said "ball was down"

Then, I turned and waited and F3 tagged R1. I said R1 was out and BR was safe.

I didn't want to jeopardize R1 by making a call, or making a call, and then having it be wrong and have to correct it. I just didn't know what the best way to handle this would be.

[ALStripes17]

This is what made me pause. If they tag him as well, then on either count, I've got the runner out. But if it's not caught, the runner can go to 2nd of course.
 
I watched it happen, made a note of what order I had it happen in, and then went "oh ****, I don't know what happened on the hit"
Looked at PU and asked, he pointed fair and said "ball was down"
Then, I turned and waited and F3 tagged R1. I said R1 was out and BR was safe.
I didn't want to jeopardize R1 by making a call, or making a call, and then having it be wrong and have to correct it. I just didn't know what the best way to handle this would be.

Your PU needs to let everyone know 'no catch' emphatically... Verbal and visual. Other than that. One out would typically be made on this play (unless it was a catch and appeal to 1B) so get the one out with someone still on 1B (whichever the 'right' one should be) and keep playing baseball

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[udbrky]

3 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Your PU needs to let everyone know 'no catch' emphatically... Verbal and visual. Other than that. One out would typically be made on this play (unless it was a catch and appeal to 1B) so get the one out with someone still on 1B (whichever the 'right' one should be) and keep playing baseball

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

We post gamed it a bit. He gave safe and pointed fair, but I didn't pick it up as I was following the ball and he got drowned out by fans. I don't fault his mechanics (he graduated Wendlestedt). I just didn't have time to pick it up.

[ALStripes17]

We post gamed it a bit. He gave safe and pointed fair, but I didn't pick it up as I was following the ball and he got drowned out by fans. I don't fault his mechanics (he graduated Wendlestedt). I just didn't have time to pick it up.

How many fans do y'all call in front of? Bc it's not hard to pick up that signal and/or make your voice loud enough to be heard.

 

And I'm sorry. I don't buy the whole 'graduated from Wendelstadt' line. I know of too many guys that have gone to school and they aren't an ounce a better umpire now than they were when they went down there. I don't knock the schools, just some of the individuals that 'graduate' from the schools.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[udbrky]

It wasn't a big crowd, but I didn't pick him up, he's really pretty vocal.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

And for what it's worth. The scenario you described has absolutely nothing yet anyway. If caught, then BR is out and R1 safely returned. 

 

According to OP BR beat throw and throw beat R1 with F3's foot on bag, so your statement is only true if you don't consider the throw to first an obvious appeal attempt.  Like BU, F1 may not know what PU ruled.  F1 certainly has a strong idea whether he caught the ball or didn't, and we can assume he's making the throw to first with an intent based on what he knows, but do we punish him if he doesn't know if it's a catch or not before he makes the throw - all he knows is he has to throw to first regardless.

I think we have to give the benefit of the doubt to the appeal.  Otherwise, you get into a rather awful attempt at mind-reading.  ie. PU ruled it a catch, but F1 thought it hit the ground, so F1's explicit intent was to get the BR, not to appeal R1 leaving early.

[ALStripes17]

According to OP BR beat throw and throw beat R1 with F3's foot on bag, so your statement is only true if you don't consider the throw to first an obvious appeal attempt.  Like BU, F1 may not know what PU ruled.  F1 certainly has a strong idea whether he caught the ball or didn't, and we can assume he's making the throw to first with an intent based on what he knows, but do we punish him if he doesn't know if it's a catch or not before he makes the throw - all he knows is he has to throw to first regardless.
I think we have to give the benefit of the doubt to the appeal.  Otherwise, you get into a rather awful attempt at mind-reading.  ie. PU ruled it a catch, but F1 thought it hit the ground, so F1's explicit intent was to get the BR, not to appeal R1 leaving early.

Appeals must be unmistakeable. I don't envision the way you describe it as unmistakeable... I'm not giving benefit to the defense just because they could throw it to 1B for a multitude of reasons.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[beerguy55]

10 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Appeals must be unmistakeable. I don't envision the way you describe it as unmistakeable... I'm not giving benefit to the defense just because they could throw it to 1B for a multitude of reasons.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

From a pure baseball play view, and how I think when I am on the field, I see it completely differently - mostly because I have predetermined about 20 scenarios in my head before the pitch was thrown.  If I make a diving catch/non-catch and I throw to a base where one runner is advancing and another is retreating to it, my intent "should" be obvious - if I caught it it's an appeal, if I didn't catch it it's not.  What I'm not going to do is hold on to the ball and wait to learn the call before I show my intent.

[ALStripes17]

From a pure baseball play view, and how I think when I am on the field, I see it completely differently - mostly because I have predetermined about 20 scenarios in my head before the pitch was thrown.  If I make a diving catch/non-catch and I throw to a base where one runner is advancing and another is retreating to it, my intent "should" be obvious - if I caught it it's an appeal, if I didn't catch it it's not.  What I'm not going to do is hold on to the ball and wait to learn the call before I show my intent.

I understand that. But we still can't rule on an appeal unless it's unmistakeable. That is a pure rule in the rulebook. And given the scenario and how it was written, I would not have an unmistakeable appeal here. How many times in baseball have you seen a player think he's caught a ball when he hasn't (or was ruled he didn't)? Unless there's a wrong call by the umpire that puts a runner in jeopardy, we get one out here as described. But I don't discredit the idea that there may be situations that arise similar to the OP where we get 2 outs.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[udbrky]

Runner's going back to 1B, throw goes there. If it's caught, I don't see how this isn't an appeal.

[beerguy55]

5 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

How many times in baseball have you seen a player think he's caught a ball when he hasn't (or was ruled he didn't)? 
 

And there's the rub.  If I "think" I caught the ball, or if I did catch the ball, but was ruled I didn't, my intent is appeal. But it doesn't matter, because if I didn't catch the ball the appeal doesn't exist, and tags/forces can be accidental, so my intent is irrelevant.

My intent only comes into play if I was ruled to have caught the ball, but I didn't think so.  But if an umpire is calling it a catch, you'd have to be a Jedi to conclude that I actually thought I trapped it, and was not making an appeal play.  If you have ruled me to have caught the ball, and I throw the ball to a base where the runner is retreating, that should be unmistakable - even if BR is advancing to the same base.

The reality is, for most ball players, especially at anything over 12 years old, this is a contingency play - my intent is contingent on what the umpire ruled.

 

[ALStripes17]

And there's the rub.  If I "think" I caught the ball, or if I did catch the ball, but was ruled I didn't, my intent is appeal. But it doesn't matter, because if I didn't catch the ball the appeal doesn't exist, and tags/forces can be accidental, so my intent is irrelevant.
My intent only comes into play if I was ruled to have caught the ball, but I didn't think so.  But if an umpire is calling it a catch, you'd have to be a Jedi to conclude that I actually thought I trapped it, and was not making an appeal play.  If you have ruled me to have caught the ball, and I throw the ball to a base where the runner is retreating, that should be unmistakable - even if BR is advancing to the same base.
The reality is, for most ball players, especially at anything over 12 years old, this is a contingency play - my intent is contingent on what the umpire ruled.
 

But in all of that reasoning you have forgotten about the runners reaction to whatever the umpires delayed call may be... Sure the appeal to first base maybe unmistakable but the runner may have gotten back in time if the Umpire made the right call at the right time. Again I acknowledge that I understood your logic and saw what you were saying everything I've said is in reference to the Op and how it was worded

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[beerguy55]

40 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

But in all of that reasoning you have forgotten about the runners reaction to whatever the umpires delayed call may be... Sure the appeal to first base maybe unmistakable but the runner may have gotten back in time if the Umpire made the right call at the right time. Again I acknowledge that I understood your logic and saw what you were saying everything I've said is in reference to the Op and how it was worded
 

Absolutely no dispute with that.  I was seeing that as a separate issue.   And I have no problem with the umpire correcting a "cheap" second out that he created by being hesitant or non-decisive.

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, udbrky said:

We post gamed it a bit. He gave safe and pointed fair, but I didn't pick it up as I was following the ball and he got drowned out by fans. I don't fault his mechanics (he graduated Wendlestedt). I just didn't have time to pick it up.

You HAVE to pick him up and see his call. There's R1, you're in "B", F1 charging in to catch a pop up is PU's call. Both F1 making the play and PU are right in front of you. You need to see PU's call before F1 even throws to 1B.

After missing PU's call, the bed is made. After BR crosses 1B, then the ball gets there, the R1 gets back, then F3 tags R1, all you can reasonably do is call "Time", find out if the pop up was caught or not, and sort out the mess from there.

[udbrky]

No tag was made though.

[Richvee]

Then I suppose you need to see the play at 1B, then turn back and ask your partner was it a catch or not, then make the call. If I have the order right and PU said no catch point to the BR and say "safe", and wait and see what F1 does and what the defense does. Sooner or later R1 will run for 2B or F3 will tag him. No easy solution other than like AL Stripes said, PU needs to come up BIG with the no catch verbal and safe mechanic so there's no way in Hell you, or anyone else could miss it.