Asking for Help

[blue23ll]

Varsity game, I have the dish. The game is tied 3-3 going into the bottom of the 6th where the HT takes a one run lead. Top 7 the VT gets their lead off runner on base.  Ground ball to F6 who bobbles it a bit and throws to 2b for the force. The play is a banger, partner calls R1 safe. DHC comes out and discusses the call, he think the runner should be out, asks my partner to get help and he comes to me. 

Here are my questions: 

1) Should you get help on calls that should be 100% yours? A banger at first, you are in A, do you go for help? 

2) Is your partner throwing you under the bus if he does come for help ? 

Here are my thoughts on these questions:

1) No, you shouldn't go for help on calls that are yours. Own your calls. We live or die by them. Get help when you are screened or maybe aren't in the best position. If you think you got your call wrong, fix it yourself. 

2) I think in some ways you are putting your partner on the spot, because they are now in a lose-lose situation. 

Here's what happened at the game. My partner came to me for help, I asked him if he was 100% sure he got the right call, or did he want to change the call. I wouldn't change it for him. He said he was so the call wasn't changed. VT goes on a small rally and ends up going up 5-4. Between innings the Home HC asks me what I saw on that play, and I said, we ruled and that was it. He said that I had to have seen the runner out by a full step. I said, my partner was right on top of the play, I was 120 feet away. He asked, if I saw the out I had a responsibility to change the call for the integrity of the game. I told him that there are only certain calls that should be changed, and that sometimes an incorrect call happens, we can't debate every close call that happens to go against you. He didn't like that answer. 

[maven]

I agree with your answers and your reasoning.

Coach does not understand the "get it right" philosophy. He says you had a "responsibility to change the call," when in fact the opposite is true: we have no right to change a partner's call. Only he can do that.

If I have information that will clearly change a call — partner called a runner out, but the ball was on the ground — then we have to get it right. I will go to him with that info.

If I merely disagree with my partner's judgment, that's nothing. Otherwise, he might as well go home.

[noumpere]

35 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

 Get help when you are screened or maybe aren't in the best position.

I agree with most of what you said.  I might clarify the above a bit -- even if you are screened or not in the best position, if it's your call AND there's nothing "additional" about the call -- you need to make it yourself.  In this play, pretty much all you are judging is whether the ball beat the runner.  And, if that's all there is, it's your call.

 

Now, if the coach claims the ball wasn't caught, or the runner came off the base, or something like that -- your partner can help on this additional information.

[Cav]

3 hours ago, blue23ll said:

...Between innings the Home HC asks me what I saw on that play, and I said, we ruled and that was it. He said that I had to have seen the runner out by a full step. I said...

Stop talking here!

[blue23ll]

If the HC had been aggressive or agitated the discussion would not have even started. He was conversational, so we had a conversation. The key take away from the experience is don't say anything that you don't want to get back to your partner. I kept the conversation about 'just the facts' and not my personal opinion. Had I told the HC that I thought my partner kicked the call, there would have been a different outcome. 

[Replacematt]

13 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

 Had I told the HC that I thought my partner kicked the call, there would have been a different outcome. 

You did.

Quote

He said that I had to have seen the runner out by a full step. I said, my partner was right on top of the play, I was 120 feet away. He asked, if I saw the out I had a responsibility to change the call for the integrity of the game. I told him that there are only certain calls that should be changed, and that sometimes an incorrect call happens, we can't debate every close call that happens to go against you.

 

[blue23ll]

I didn't say my partner blew this call, I said sometimes calls get missed. Had I said that I thought my partner had missed the call, he would have told my partner that, he did not. He told my partner that I asked him if he was 100% sure of his call. 

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

I didn't say my partner blew this call, I said sometimes calls get missed. 

That's the same thing in this context.

[ElkOil]

4 hours ago, blue23ll said:

Varsity game, I have the dish. The game is tied 3-3 going into the bottom of the 6th where the HT takes a one run lead. Top 7 the VT gets their lead off runner on base.  Ground ball to F6 who bobbles it a bit and throws to 2b for the force. The play is a banger, partner calls R1 safe. DHC comes out and discusses the call, he think the runner should be out, asks my partner to get help and he comes to me. 

Here are my questions: 

1) Should you get help on calls that should be 100% yours? A banger at first, you are in A, do you go for help? 

2) Is your partner throwing you under the bus if he does come for help ? 

Here are my thoughts on these questions:

1) No, you shouldn't go for help on calls that are yours. Own your calls. We live or die by them. Get help when you are screened or maybe aren't in the best position. If you think you got your call wrong, fix it yourself. 

2) I think in some ways you are putting your partner on the spot, because they are now in a lose-lose situation. 

Here's what happened at the game. My partner came to me for help, I asked him if he was 100% sure he got the right call, or did he want to change the call. I wouldn't change it for him. He said he was so the call wasn't changed. VT goes on a small rally and ends up going up 5-4. Between innings the Home HC asks me what I saw on that play, and I said, we ruled and that was it. He said that I had to have seen the runner out by a full step. I said, my partner was right on top of the play, I was 120 feet away. He asked, if I saw the out I had a responsibility to change the call for the integrity of the game. I told him that there are only certain calls that should be changed, and that sometimes an incorrect call happens, we can't debate every close call that happens to go against you. He didn't like that answer. 

On close plays like this, the coach is simply shopping for a call and I don't like when they do that. If he thought he saw something like a dropped ball, missed tag or a pulled foot, that's another issue and hopefully your partner can bring some additional info to the discussion.

On changing calls, it's important to remember that by rule an umpire can't overrule another, so there is no such thing as changing someone's call for them. All we can do is offer up what we saw, inject an interpretation or whatever, and let our partner do what he will with that info.

I don't think a partner is ever throwing me under a bus or putting me on the spot by coming to me. I'm glad when they do, and I'm happy to do the same when it's appropriate. And sometimes the only thing I have to say on a call like this is, "I had what you had" and move on from there.

Some coaches think that they still get a raw deal, and maybe they like to vent or discuss it after the fact. And how I handle that has a lot to do with their demeanor and our relationship. If the coach is just frustrated, I tell him I understand where he's coming from, but the call was based on what we saw and the info we had.

[blue23ll]

Yes, most of the conversation was me empathizing with the coach and his feeling of frustration. He wanted to get it off his chest, I let him. We agreed to disagree. It was a very good baseball game. 

[grayhawk]

Spoken in an empathetic, but direct tone:

Coach, I understand that you feel the call was incorrect.  You already had an opportunity to speak with (partner's name) about it and the call stands.  There's nothing for you and I to discuss about it.

[maineump]

Most coaches think that we "have to" go to the partner every time they ask.

I was PU in D-3 game the other night (2-man), called a fair/foul on 1B line (partner in C). Coach didn't like the call, he felt the ball did/didn't go over the bag. He 'discussed' the call with me, and asked me to go to my partner for his opinion. I basically stated, I was on the line had a great view, and my partner had no angle on that play. When he tried to keep going, I asked if he really wanted to continue - he smiled at me and walked away. He was fishing - this guy has a history of "discussing" close calls that don't go his way.

They are coming out anyhow, I let them say their piece, then move on.

[kstrunk]

On 4/7/2016 at 9:37 AM, blue23ll said:

He said that I had to have seen the runner out by a full step. I said, my partner was right on top of the play, I was 120 feet away. He asked, if I saw the out I had a responsibility to change the call for the integrity of the game.

Is it advisable to let a coach question our integrity like this? I'm not saying he should be tossed, but I'm thinking if I'm on the receiving end of this, regardless of his tone, I might have to let the coach know he has entered dangerous waters, or something??? I suppose we could debate about his verbiage, but I think his intent in pretty clear. 

[ricka56]

7 minutes ago, kstrunk said:

Is it advisable to let a coach question our integrity like this? I'm not saying he should be tossed, but I'm thinking if I'm on the receiving end of this, regardless of his tone, I might have to let the coach know he has entered dangerous waters, or something??? I suppose we could debate about his verbiage, but I think his intent in pretty clear. 

He said "integrity of the game", he's not questioning the umpire's integrity. He's just trying to guilt PU into doing something in his favor. It might be advisable to extricate oneself from that convo, but you shouldn't put HC on the ejection bubble for that.  

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, kstrunk said:

Is it advisable to let a coach question our integrity like this? . 

I don't read the coach's comments that way at all.

[RichMSN]

Life would be a lot easier if more umpires would just say, "No, I'm not going for help on that one," and walk away.