Lefty check swing - BU in 'A'

[kstrunk]

I'm BU in 'A'. 16U, LHB, tries to check his swing. I immediately tell myself 'he went' because I clearly saw the bat pass his front hip. PU calls the pitch a ball. Catcher asks to check with me on the swing, and he does. I said 'yes he did' and hammer the strike. 1BC (and manager) says 'there's no way you can make that call ethically!', and continues to object to the call. 

So I explained to the manager 'Normally I'd agree with you, but the bat clearly passed his front hip. If he didn't go, I wouldn't be able to see that, but I did, he went.' He started to 'him and haw' until I told him 'it's enough, I won't be accused of being unethical or cheating again, the conversation is over.' He later apologized for saying I was unethical. 

I'm of the opinion that BU should be careful about calling these depending on the position and circumstances. I might even ordinarily agree with the 1BC, that when in 'A' with a LHB, it might not be 'wise' to make that call. But to me, this one was easy.

But I'd like to refresh what you guys think about these calls, including when in 'B' or 'C'.  

[johnnyg08]

Keep it simple.  "Can't argue balls and strikes, in my judgment he swung."  Don't get into a big dialogue over this stuff.

Call what you see.  Is it tougher, sure, but it's no different on a RHB from C.  

Don't make it a bigger deal than it needs to be.  

[noumpere]

I think it's easier to call it from behind (so, LH hitter when in A).

 

I agree that the coach needs to be shut down immediately both on arguing balls and strikes and on the unethical comment.

[conbo61]

Good job on the call, even better on shutting down the coach.  Sounds like you handled it correctly all around.

Had this happen last year for a third out.  The coach was arguing with the PU asking why he would even ask.  As the player was jogging out to his position he said to me, "I don't know why he is arguing, everyone in the park knows I went."  Made me chuckle.

 

[Majordave]

Easy call to make. All of the indicators, hands, bat, hips, plate, etc. just ways to help you decide the real issue: Did the batter attempt to hit the ball?  If yes, in your judgment, make the call. 

As for ASSt. Coach or HC whining. I'll put a hand up and say "That's enough!"  Any other words from him equal ejection. I will not put up with that crap. Especially if he mentions ethics or other cheater type language. Gone in 3 seconds or less. No arguing allowed. No explanations by me either. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by Majordave

[Mick]

This issue comes up from time to time in our organization.  One of our members was recently given a pro contract, doing AA.  So at a meeting afterwards, I took the question to him:  "Here I am, in 'B', typical two-man crew.  The PU asks me to verify a strike.  How the hell am I supposed to know?  What do I do?"

He replied, "Yeah, I know you have a bad look at it, but verification is just plain expected.  Respond.  If you're not sure, it's 'no swing'.  But don't shrug your shoulders.  Ever."

[Majordave]

If I'd been working any other level of summer ball other than college woodbat Ban Johnson this past Tuesday I'd have done the "No! But it caught the corner! Strike 3!" call. 

My partner was working his second game at this level. He was a bit nervous and had a much smaller than mine strike zone. He came to me while I'm in C on a check swing. I didn't think the batter went but I most definitely thought the pitch was a strike on outside corner. I hesitated, decided against making that crazy joke of a call and just signaled safe and "No!  He did not!"

I'm chuckling aloud to myself as I type this wondering what the repercussions would have been if I'd tried to ring up a batter from C on a pitch not a swing. The ultimate stepping on your partner's dick move for sure eh?

 Hahaha!  

[noumpere]

This issue comes up from time to time in our organization.  One of our members was recently given a pro contract, doing AA.  So at a meeting afterwards, I took the question to him:  "Here I am, in 'B', typical two-man crew.  The PU asks me to verify a strike.  How the hell am I supposed to know?  What do I do?"

​You mean PU had a strike and then asked you?  I would not make a ruling on the question.  I would get to the PU and remind him that this is not an appeal-able act.

 

But, if he called a ball and then asked you, you need to know enough about umpiring and baseball to make a ruling.  Don't want to do part of your job?  Give the PU part of your paycheck.

[JaxRolo]

A couple years ago NCAA went to asking the umpire behind the batter.

failed experiment.

[noumpere]

A couple years ago NCAA went to asking the umpire behind the batter.

failed experiment.

​They went to asking the umpire on the line, if the other was in the middle.  If both were on the line, they asked the open side.

 

Never addressed, as far as I know, was *why* it failed -- were more calls "missed" or did coaches just not understand it?

[Mick]

​You mean PU had a strike and then asked you?  I would not make a ruling on the question.  I would get to the PU and remind him that this is not an appeal-able act.

 

But, if he called a ball and then asked you, you need to know enough about umpiring and baseball to make a ruling.  Don't want to do part of your job?  Give the PU part of your paycheck.

​wow..... READ what I WROTE.  It was not an actual situation I was in.  It was hypothetical, just to illustrate the issue.  Nobody called anything.  Perhaps the word "verify" was not well-chosen.  I was posing a commonly-talked about situation to a contracted professional umpire.  The issue was: if he checks with you, but you're not in an ideal field position to clearly see if he went around or not, what should you do?  Answer: make a call.  If you're not sure, say, "No swing".  

The tacky insults, due to a lack of understanding, were totally unnecessary.

[zm1283]

A couple years ago NCAA went to asking the umpire behind the batter.

failed experiment.

​I'm not sure it failed as much as a bunch of people resistant to change complained about it, coaches and umpires included. Like noumpere said, they had us check with the umpire on the wing, wherever he happened to be. Not necessarily the one behind the batter. If both were on the line, you checked with the open side as we do now. 

Personally, I loved it and thought they should have stayed with it at least for a few years. It is a lot easier to rule on half swings from behind the batter while you're on the wing than it is from the middle. I would much rather be in A with a LH batter than C.

[noumpere]

​wow..... READ what I WROTE.  It was not an actual situation I was in.  It was hypothetical, just to illustrate the issue.  Nobody called anything.  Perhaps the word "verify" was not well-chosen.  I was posing a commonly-talked about situation to a contracted professional umpire.  The issue was: if he checks with you, but you're not in an ideal field position to clearly see if he went around or not, what should you do?  Answer: make a call.  If you're not sure, say, "No swing".  

The tacky insults, due to a lack of understanding, were totally unnecessary.

​I did read what you wrote.  You said "here I am ..."  No words about it being hypothetical, just that you asked a AA MiLB umpire.

 

And, I did say I was confused whether you were "asked" about a strike call or a ball call.

 

Finally, I disagree with the MiLB umpire.  I'm as much in favor of using "benefit of the doubt" on calls as anyone, but I don't think this is a time when you can use it.  Just decide -- he went or he didn't.  No "if I'm not sure..." stuff.

 

I do agree with the MiLB umpire that you shouldn't shrug your shoulders.

[eric0531]

I'm of the opinion that BU should be careful about calling these depending on the position and circumstances. I might even ordinarily agree with the 1BC, that when in 'A' with a LHB, it might not be 'wise' to make that call. But to me, this one was easy.

But I'd like to refresh what you guys think about these calls, including when in 'B' or 'C'.  

​I had a similar situation Monday night in a 14U game. Right handed hitter, my partner was in C. I did a "No, he didn't go" on a check swing, and the catcher asked if I could get help. I asked my partner who rang the kid up (it was a 3-2 pitch). OC at 1st did a "No way you can make that call!" and "He shouldn't even be able to ask for help on that!". We both ignored him and that was the end of it (one more comment would have gotten him a "that's enough").

Personally, unless a team starts to abuse it I'm just about always going to ask my partner if the catcher requests it simply as a courtesy, and I've got no issue going for help whether my partner is in A, B or C. I trust they'll only call a strike if they feel like it was obvious.